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**challagan** · 06-25-2007, 09:59 PM

This is an interesting thread. Thanks all! I have to say... I understand what Niki is trying to accomplish here. Niki I could have used you and your method of squaring up until about 10 years ago. I finally got it thru my thick head that I did not have to be parallel to the table edge. Again I understand why you do what you do and that was the whole purpose of this thread. I am just glad that I was able to quit spending 30 minutes and 3 cigarettes trying to line up the fence. I still fight that urge... old habits are hard to break. Bob Noles had to remind me yesterday that I didn't have to have anything but clamps to mount the Incra Positioner down to the table... that I didn't have to have slots or T-channel in the table to help align the fence to the table. He of course was right... but I think I will still put an edge stop on one side to make it slide easier and help keep it close without having it sliding all over the table.

It still drives me nuts seeing a fence angled on top of the router table. At least I stop with an eyeball parallel check

now and put the squares and rulers etc. away

Corey

**bobj3** · 06-25-2007, 10:48 PM

Hi Cowboy

All I can say why ?

If you watch Bob R. he is always pushing don't use a ruler and he is right you can read it many ways..(the ruler) and not the same each time .I like is Rubber Ruler that Bob has best ,the one he keeps in his pocket all the time.....

A setup block works so easy ,just slide it next to the bit pull the fence in and lock the fence in place and your done, then just make the pass and it will be right on ,then if you need one more board the same way you just grab the setup up and make one more...we all make errors and will always need one more....

or that slot should be just a bit wider or just over by just a bit and the setup block can do that in a heart beat.

I should NOTE**** woodworking is learning how to fix the errors we all make, it can be something so simple like 4 parts to a box and one will be always a bit short or long ,it's just a part of woodworking , so the simple way is always the best...and setup blocks make it easy and simple...

One more note*** Cowboy once you move your "trusty and somewhat rusty combination square" it is now a rubber ruler...you can take my word for it.

---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drugstore Cowboy

Help me out here -
For the sake of argument let's say I know the distance from the front edge of the table to the center of the bit is 6"
I want to make a 1/2" dado 2" from the edge of the piece.
I'm using a 1/2" bit.
SO --
Step 1
I take my trusty and somewhat rusty combination square
and set it to 8 1/4"
6" to bit center + 1/4" for half the bit + 2" for space on the piece
Step 2
I press my square tight against the front of the table --
Step 3
I press the right side fence against the end of the square and lock it down.
Step 4
I do the same on the left side fence - then doublecheck.

Compared to Nik's description and a lot of other discussion this seems so simplistic --- but it always seemed to work for me.
Am I missing something?

Drugstore Cowboy · 06-25-2007, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobj3

Hi Cowboy

All I can say why ?
. . .
A setup block works so easy ,just slide it next to the bit pull the fence in and lock the fence in place and your done,
. . .

No arguing with that.
Truth be told -- I have been known to do it that way particularly on my table saw
When I need 3/4" I turn a 1x on its side. For 2" I use the broad side of my framing square etc.
And yes - for repetitive measurements -- I rip the desired width first and use that piece.

As for why I bother to do it the other way ---
I blame it on lingering trauma from Jr Hi math

--
Just getting the right answer was not enough
you had to -

show your work

So -- I have this tendency to think everything has to be a process -
If it's too easy -- it can't be --- 'right'.

Also a reason I am always fascinated by detailed outlines like Nik and others give of various jigs etc -- even when I dont totally 'get' them.

Thank you for affirming the right to keep it simple.

**harrysin** · 06-26-2007, 01:00 AM

OYVAY indeed, I'm still holding my head. As always, Niki's projects are ingenious and well thought out and beautifully presented, but as everyone should know by now I'm rather lazy and opt for the simple ways to achieve outcomes and I suspect that unlike metal-workers who need greater accuracy, most woodworkers would tend to be like me. Half my enjoyment doing woodwork is derived from turning errors into features! Large boxes sometimes end up as medium or even small boxes!

**bobj3** · 06-26-2007, 01:05 AM

Hi Cowboy

When I got my Incra Universal Positioning Jig about a year ago I didn't want to buy it because I knew they would come out with a diag.read out type and maybe one with a small IC chip (computer on board ,set and forget type) and it's coming for the router table so all the guess work will be taken away.....more or less

for the fence....
Just as soon as Incra sales all the ones they have made up for sale around the world...we will get the new stuff...

high end tech stuff....

Bj

**challagan** · 06-26-2007, 07:50 AM

Good, that's what I like about new HI Tech stuff, it makes the old stuff I couldn't afford before available at a much better price

I didn't know you have the Incra, do you use it much?

Corey

Drugstore Cowboy · 06-26-2007, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobj3

Hi Cowboy
. . . computer on board ,set and forget type. . .

high end tech stuff....

Bj

SAY IT AINT SO !!!!!!!!!!!

I do tech support and network management for a library - so I deal with computers and all their weirdness all day long.
I go into my shop to get AWAY from that.
I'm not quite skilled or patient enough to go the hand-tools-only route but I like to stay as low-tech and close to the wood as possible.
And besides when my combination square 'locks up' I can fix it with WD40

And any 'bugs' can be handled with HotShot.

**bobj3** · 06-26-2007, 08:49 AM

Hi Corey

Nope I don't use it , it's in a box in the shop I should take it out and try it one more time on the little router table....but then again I would need to make a wing out the back side or the right side of the table to use it... and the little table works just the way I want it to....plus I have so many jigs to put in dovetails and slots and that take less work to setup and use....

Talking about that little router table, I made some (4ea) walnut fingers for the Katie jig and that little table is great

the parts are not that big and it did a great job on them and I didn't mind holding the parts with my hands because I can get right on top of it and see all the cuts...great little Colt router....

---------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by challagan

Good, that's what I like about new HI Tech stuff, it makes the old stuff I couldn't afford before available at a much better price

I didn't know you have the Incra, do you use it much?

Corey

gregW · 06-26-2007, 09:18 AM

Thanks for sharing Niki...Using your method I should be able to set the fence right on the money in less than a minute. It looks like it would be both very quick and very accurate! I like the idea of starting out with solid reference points to help me keep my bearings straight.

Greg

simplenik · 06-26-2007, 09:37 AM

Good day friends

So that's what you were doing there when I was sleeping here

First, to remove any confusion about the fence position relative to the table, I took some pics...

You can put the fence like that with a spacer (3/4") between the fence and the bit and the slot will start 3/4" from the workpiece edge.

But you can get the same result with the fence at this position

Or even this position

Actually, you can clamp on side of the fence to act as a pivot point

Put the spacer, move the other side of the fence to the spacer and clamp it to the table

About the hard way and the easy way...I think that what looks easy for one...looks hard for others and vice-versa.
For some (or all) of you, my method looks hard but for me it looks very simple and easy...Yes, it's true that I have to make a T-fence (that adds 10~15 min to the fence construction time) but, only ONES and yes, it's true that I have to make the slot and the plates, but, only ONES...

I timed the fence setting starting with nothin exept the fence and the micro-adjuster on the table.
I put the locator and the caliper, turned the micro-adjuster knob distance of 10 mm (3/8") to get the required fence/bit distance and locked the fence...looked at the clock...12 seconds...

What I'm getting from it ? A lot of accuracy, sorry but, I love accuracy...did I say Love...I'm crazy about accuracy. When I make a groove or slot at 20 mm from the board edge and at the depth of 10 mm...I want it to be 20 ± 0.0 and 10 ± 0.0 and believe me, it's such a pleasure when it happens.

A few days ago, I posted my "First box" and you could see the fit of the fingers...it would not happen if the spacer that I was using was not exactly 20 mm.

Will I change your mind...no...
Will you change my mind...also no...

We are just sharing our jig and fixtures and everybody has a little bit different vie on "how things should be done" but, I think that there is no such a think like the "easy way" or the "hard way", it's personal and everybody has his opinion.

sometimes when I see some jig, it looks to me very complicated but, for the creator it looks very simple (and I'm sure that the creator have seen other versions of the jig).

And to finish, let me tell you a story;
One guy came from abroad...to the customs...
"What you have to declare" ask the customs officer
"Birds food"...
"Birds food ?, lets see it"
The guy opened the suitcase and the officer said
"That's not a birds food, that's coffee"
"Well...they want they eat...they don't wont the don't eat"

GregW
Thank you
As I said if I can help even one person...I made my money...

Best Regards
niki

06-25-2007, 09:59 PM	#11
challagan Retired Moderator Supreme Forum King Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Iowa Posts: 4,002 View challagan's Gallery	Report This Post! This is an interesting thread. Thanks all! I have to say... I understand what Niki is trying to accomplish here. Niki I could have used you and your method of squaring up until about 10 years ago. I finally got it thru my thick head that I did not have to be parallel to the table edge. Again I understand why you do what you do and that was the whole purpose of this thread. I am just glad that I was able to quit spending 30 minutes and 3 cigarettes trying to line up the fence. I still fight that urge... old habits are hard to break. Bob Noles had to remind me yesterday that I didn't have to have anything but clamps to mount the Incra Positioner down to the table... that I didn't have to have slots or T-channel in the table to help align the fence to the table. He of course was right... but I think I will still put an edge stop on one side to make it slide easier and help keep it close without having it sliding all over the table. It still drives me nuts seeing a fence angled on top of the router table. At least I stop with an eyeball parallel check now and put the squares and rulers etc. away Corey __________________ My Carving Website: The Iowa Woodcarver http://iowacarver.tripod.com/ My Shop Website - Woodshop 51503 http://woodshop51503.tripod.com/
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06-26-2007, 01:00 AM	#14
harrysin Forum Contributer Supreme Forum King Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Western Australia Posts: 3,321 View harrysin's Gallery	Report This Post! OYVAY indeed, I'm still holding my head. As always, Niki's projects are ingenious and well thought out and beautifully presented, but as everyone should know by now I'm rather lazy and opt for the simple ways to achieve outcomes and I suspect that unlike metal-workers who need greater accuracy, most woodworkers would tend to be like me. Half my enjoyment doing woodwork is derived from turning errors into features! Large boxes sometimes end up as medium or even small boxes! __________________ *Harry*
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06-26-2007, 01:05 AM	#15
bobj3 Forum Contributer Supreme Forum King Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Littleton,Colorado U.S.A. Posts: 8,256 View bobj3's Gallery	Report This Post! Hi Cowboy When I got my Incra Universal Positioning Jig about a year ago I didn't want to buy it because I knew they would come out with a diag.read out type and maybe one with a small IC chip (computer on board ,set and forget type) and it's coming for the router table so all the guess work will be taken away.....more or less for the fence.... Just as soon as Incra sales all the ones they have made up for sale around the world...we will get the new stuff... high end tech stuff.... Bj __________________ PodCast videos RWS on YouTube http://www.routerforums.com/86898-post1.html Besure and click on the Up Arrow key ▲ on the Youtube video, you can select other youtube videos on router tables http://www.woodworkingonline.com/?s=dovetail Machine Cut ▼ http://www.woodworkingonline.com/200...cut-dovetails/ http://www.woodworkingonline.com/woo...podcast-store/ http://www.woodshopdemos.com/menu2.htm Bob J. Last edited by bobj3; 06-26-2007 at 01:12 AM.
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06-26-2007, 07:50 AM	#16
challagan Retired Moderator Supreme Forum King Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Iowa Posts: 4,002 View challagan's Gallery	Report This Post! Good, that's what I like about new HI Tech stuff, it makes the old stuff I couldn't afford before available at a much better price I didn't know you have the Incra, do you use it much? Corey __________________ My Carving Website: The Iowa Woodcarver http://iowacarver.tripod.com/ My Shop Website - Woodshop 51503 http://woodshop51503.tripod.com/
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06-26-2007, 09:18 AM	#19
gregW Registered User Forum Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: California, USA Posts: 147 View gregW's Gallery	Report This Post! Thanks for sharing Niki...Using your method I should be able to set the fence right on the money in less than a minute. It looks like it would be both very quick and very accurate! I like the idea of starting out with solid reference points to help me keep my bearings straight. Greg
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06-26-2007, 09:37 AM	#20
simplenik Registered User Forum Geek Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 228 View simplenik's Gallery	Report This Post! Good day friends So that's what you were doing there when I was sleeping here First, to remove any confusion about the fence position relative to the table, I took some pics... You can put the fence like that with a spacer (3/4") between the fence and the bit and the slot will start 3/4" from the workpiece edge. But you can get the same result with the fence at this position Or even this position Actually, you can clamp on side of the fence to act as a pivot point Put the spacer, move the other side of the fence to the spacer and clamp it to the table About the hard way and the easy way...I think that what looks easy for one...looks hard for others and vice-versa. For some (or all) of you, my method looks hard but for me it looks very simple and easy...Yes, it's true that I have to make a T-fence (that adds 10~15 min to the fence construction time) but, only ONES and yes, it's true that I have to make the slot and the plates, but, only ONES... I timed the fence setting starting with nothin exept the fence and the micro-adjuster on the table. I put the locator and the caliper, turned the micro-adjuster knob distance of 10 mm (3/8") to get the required fence/bit distance and locked the fence...looked at the clock...12 seconds... What I'm getting from it ? A lot of accuracy, sorry but, I love accuracy...did I say Love...I'm crazy about accuracy. When I make a groove or slot at 20 mm from the board edge and at the depth of 10 mm...I want it to be 20 ± 0.0 and 10 ± 0.0 and believe me, it's such a pleasure when it happens. A few days ago, I posted my "First box" and you could see the fit of the fingers...it would not happen if the spacer that I was using was not exactly 20 mm. Will I change your mind...no... Will you change my mind...also no... We are just sharing our jig and fixtures and everybody has a little bit different vie on "how things should be done" but, I think that there is no such a think like the "easy way" or the "hard way", it's personal and everybody has his opinion. sometimes when I see some jig, it looks to me very complicated but, for the creator it looks very simple (and I'm sure that the creator have seen other versions of the jig). And to finish, let me tell you a story; One guy came from abroad...to the customs... "What you have to declare" ask the customs officer "Birds food"... "Birds food ?, lets see it" The guy opened the suitcase and the officer said "That's not a birds food, that's coffee" "Well...they want they eat...they don't wont the don't eat" GregW Thank you As I said if I can help even one person...I made my money... Best Regards niki Last edited by simplenik; 06-26-2007 at 09:51 AM.
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