Tips for Installing a Dust Collection System - Page 2 - Router Forums
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post #11 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-25-2015, 09:07 PM
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Why take a chance? Very little effort and cost are required to avoid that potential problem. If static did cause a fire, the results would likely be catastrophic from your point of view.
I never thought about the potential for fire , I was told at Winsor Plywood that you could get a lethal shock .
I have no issues grounding it , I just haven't got around to it l but if I start plumbing this correctly I would like to do it right
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I don’t always insulate , but when I do .
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post #12 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-25-2015, 09:52 PM
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I to had never grounded my DC but after getting a pretty good static shock I run a bare copper wire inside my PVC and aluminum tape wrapped around the outside about 3" apart running the length of the pipe. The inside wire and outside tape are connected together with a screw and from the screw to electrical ground. I did a lot of reading of Dr. Rod Cole on grounding PVC. Not sure if it is right or wrong but I have never had my hair stand up on my arms or got a static shock again.
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post #13 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-25-2015, 10:39 PM
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This link might help with understanding and methodology of the grounding of plastic pipe.

Everyone has to understand a couple of basics; any time you have air flow across a surface, you will build static, moisture (humidity) contributes to the control or generation of static.

With all that being said, I have never seen or heard of any definitive evidence of a fire starting in a hobbyist type wood shop environment, which was caused by a static discharge in a dust collection system. If anyone has such evidence I would like the details for my own edification.

In my opinion (as a safety professional for over 35 years) I do not see it as the huge danger that some folks claim it to be. However, the grounding of ducting, even PVC is not that difficult to do. So why not do it?

Is there a danger? Static can always be an issue in a fine dust environment (look at grain silo explosions). Is it prevalent in a hobbyist wood shop? Probably not.

I think the real issue in not the grounding of ducting to prevent an explosion, but more of preventing a static discharge shock that might result in an unintended reaction by an individual. The use of volatiles near a static source is always a paramount hazard.

I'd be interested in hearing from some EE types, if there are any out there, or anyone familiar with the installation of commercial duct systems, as to what their opinion is on the matter.

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post #14 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-25-2015, 11:00 PM
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Bill I was debating to connect a ground wire from a ground rod to the duct . I'm not sure if what that guy did was neccesary ?

Or a guy could go from an electrical outlets box to the duct as all your electrical boxes are grounded by code

I don’t always insulate , but when I do .
Ok ,I never insulate
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post #15 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-25-2015, 11:08 PM
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Bill I was debating to connect a ground wire from a ground rod to the duct . I'm not sure if what that guy did was neccesary ?

Or a guy could go from an electrical outlets box to the duct as all your electrical boxes are grounded by code
I basically agree that extensive grounding may not be necessary. However, why not ground the system.

As far as grounding goes, you are right! If you ground to your electrical system it would go to the buss bar and to the ground rod. Some may say that it may not be a good idea, but I'm not sure that it is against NEC codes. Your electrical codes may be different in Canada.

I have all of my reference books packed away in storage so I can't research the codes requirements.

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post #16 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-26-2015, 12:06 AM
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I also question the idea of grounding the outside of a plastic pipe. The plastic piping systems I've seen advertised suggest running a wire down the inside and drilling a hole through near a connection so you can attach the inside to a bolt and another wire to the bolt on the outside. My preference was to use galvanized ducting instead. It's cheap and easier to ground. I still used the bolt idea but no wire needed on the inside. I also still used plastic ducting at the corners instead of galvanized bends. The plastic ones are much smoother. Use the aluminum foil duct tape at all joints and it works just as well.
Dont rely on foil tape as an electrical connection. Each layer of tape has a non conductive layer of glue on the underside. If you make several turns of foil tape what you have built is a capacitor, which actually stores and multiplies electricity. A well wrapped foil joint is a much greater hazard than an unwrapped joint.

Each plastic elbow acts as an isolator unless there is a metal connection between each cuff so every section of pipe between each elbow needs to be wired together, and to then to ground preferably at each end.
The only 100% way of curing that problem would be to drill a hole through each cuff (and tube) and bolt each together with an earth bonding wire. Which would play havoc with your air stream
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post #17 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-26-2015, 12:16 AM
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Opinions vary on the need for dissipating static electricity in home dust collection equipment. I have yet to see a shop vacuum with a static grounding feature. Neither of my dust collectors came with a static grounding system. As far as dust separators go Oneida includes a static grounding kit while Clear Vue Cyclones and Rockler do not. Festool is now offering anti static hose as an option to use with their vacuums.

Grounding the static is easy; look at the Dust Deputy Deluxe in the photo to see how this is done. Metallic tape, some wire and a washer is all that is required. As long as your separator is sitting on the ground I do not think this is really needed.

More to follow on this soon.
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post #18 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-26-2015, 12:37 AM
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I just put a bare copper #12 wire from my machine to the DC pipe. The machine is grounded so it grounds the pipe. I don't run copper along the pipe,and especially inside as it keeps the chips from moving smoothly thru the PVC and can cause build up that cuts your air flow. I only do it to keep from getting shocked at the planer and drum sander.
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post #19 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-26-2015, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by schnewj View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCPiu0zQwyI

This link might help with understanding and methodology of the grounding of plastic pipe.

Everyone has to understand a couple of basics; any time you have air flow across a surface, you will build static, moisture (humidity) contributes to the control or generation of static.

With all that being said, I have never seen or heard of any definitive evidence of a fire starting in a hobbyist type wood shop environment, which was caused by a static discharge in a dust collection system. If anyone has such evidence I would like the details for my own edification.

In my opinion (as a safety professional for over 35 years) I do not see it as the huge danger that some folks claim it to be. However, the grounding of ducting, even PVC is not that difficult to do. So why not do it?

Is there a danger? Static can always be an issue in a fine dust environment (look at grain silo explosions). Is it prevalent in a hobbyist wood shop? Probably not.

I think the real issue in not the grounding of ducting to prevent an explosion, but more of preventing a static discharge shock that might result in an unintended reaction by an individual. The use of volatiles near a static source is always a paramount hazard.

I'd be interested in hearing from some EE types, if there are any out there, or anyone familiar with the installation of commercial duct systems, as to what their opinion is on the matter.

Bill
I have a couple of quite major issues with that video.
I have been a mechanical engineer in commercial catering installations for 20 years, and part of that job involved earth continuity installing and testing. Admittedly this was in the UK, and I know the USA has some variations of regulations, but even so, nobody can say the UK is backward in safety regs.

The first issue is he is advocating a certain type of wire crimp tool that does not meet safety regulations any where in Europe.

The ratchet crimp as in this pic
https://www.google.com.cy/search?q=w...ml%3B450%3B314
is far safer, giving a consistant pressure on each use. the thin model used by the guy will give wildly varying pressures according to who uses it. Arnie would cut the crimp in two, a person with arthritis for instance will make a joint that is not secure, and unsecure joints are a big cause of sparking.
The ratchet crimp will only release when the correct pressure has been applied, even if that means a frail person has to use two hands, or even lean it against the bench, but at least you know every joint is consistantly good.

My main concern is the BARE metal wire he is using. I repeat, BARE metal! he is attempting to stop static sparks by looping BARE metal all across the place? He's not insulating the equipment, he's radiating the static.

If the wire was loaded with static and anything metallic was passed anywhere near that bare wire, he would soon learn about static sparks.

Standard household insulated ground wire should be used everywhere on a small earth continuity circuit. If anyone wants to test its efficiency, use a multitester set to Ohms, and check between any of the connections to a known ground. The power socket ground will be enough. While youre there, test your equipment metal case to the same ground screw. Hell, test everything! We tested to achieve LESS than 0.2 ohms.

A Quick point here for people not used this kind of test on a multimeter, first put the two leads together and measure the resistance of the machine and leads themselves. Its possible to get a reading of 0.6 or so from the machine depending on quality, and this number can vary every single time you use the tester.
So, when making the real test, you should check the machine EVERY TIME. Then when you test you should see the original number plus no more than another 0.2. So in this example, if you got 0.6 from the tester, and then checked the installation, If you got more than 0.8, that would be bad.

(1 decimal point either way would be regarded as fluctuation on a cheap tester, if you got more than 3 decimal points you should be worried)
If you want to be really anal about it, test between every connection on the run, and the run to ground at both ends.
Again, if your leads arent long enough, you can use extra wire to wrap around the test leads to reach, but you must make the self check again before testing the installation.

If you do not achieve these numbers then my advice is to go over the entire installation checking until you do. Or get a QUALIFIED electrician in, not a mate who has done "a bit of that".

Hope this helps.
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post #20 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-26-2015, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnybob View Post
Dont rely on foil tape as an electrical connection. Each layer of tape has a non conductive layer of glue on the underside. If you make several turns of foil tape what you have built is a capacitor, which actually stores and multiplies electricity. A well wrapped foil joint is a much greater hazard than an unwrapped joint.

Each plastic elbow acts as an isolator unless there is a metal connection between each cuff so every section of pipe between each elbow needs to be wired together, and to then to ground preferably at each end.
The only 100% way of curing that problem would be to drill a hole through each cuff (and tube) and bolt each together with an earth bonding wire. Which would play havoc with your air stream
The foil tape was to prevent air leakage. Since one section slips into the next section (under the tape) grounding is not affected. If you are really concerned about air leakage also apply the tape along the linear seam. If you do that there is guaranteed no difference in performance between plastic and metal pipe.

Someone I consider a master woodworker once told me that a master woodworker is not someone who never makes mistakes. He is someone who is able to cover them up so that no one can tell.
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