Rail Stile / Ply Panel gluing / finishing steps? - Router Forums
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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 10:01 AM Thread Starter
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Default Rail Stile / Ply Panel gluing / finishing steps?

Heres the game plan. Im currently working on a pedestal plant stand that is made of poplar x stock for the rails / stiles (just simple groves and tongues). The panels are walnut ply (one good side) for contrast.

I need a game plan for gluing up and finishing. I plan to use a coat of Danish oil followed by wipe on poly.

My initial questions:

1) Should the panels be glued to allow to float. Either way should they be cut an 1/8 smaller than they need to be to allow for an easier glue up?

2) What should be the order of gluing then finishing? If I should glue everything up before finishing is it ok to just finish one side of the ply?

This is kinda like the chicken and the egg story. Im sure there is a proper procedure here. The stand is designed and I need to start making some dust this week to get it together. Ill post some pics before I get to the glue /finishing steps.
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 11:28 AM
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What do you want this piece to look like (or match some existing piece),and why "danish oil" followed by polyurethane varnish ?. What will be the conditions where the stand will be used,sunny,humid, ?. Need more info. But in most cases the project is assembled before it is finished.

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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 12:21 PM Thread Starter
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wood will have a natural finish. Indoors.
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickbee
Heres the game plan. Im currently working on a pedestal plant stand that is made of poplar x stock for the rails / stiles (just simple groves and tongues). The panels are walnut ply (one good side) for contrast.

I need a game plan for gluing up and finishing. I plan to use a coat of Danish oil followed by wipe on poly.

My initial questions:

1) Should the panels be glued to allow to float. Either way should they be cut an 1/8 smaller than they need to be to allow for an easier glue up?

2) What should be the order of gluing then finishing? If I should glue everything up before finishing is it ok to just finish one side of the ply?

This is kinda like the chicken and the egg story. Im sure there is a proper procedure here. The stand is designed and I need to start making some dust this week to get it together. Ill post some pics before I get to the glue /finishing steps.
Yes, allow the panel to float, do not glue it, 1/8" smaller is good depending on the depth of the grooves, obviously you need enough for the panel to sit in and not come out one of the grooves.

The order of gluing/finishing is much debated. In theory it sounds good. In practice some of the theories don't work for me for a few reasons.

-If you don't prefinish anything, then when the wood shrinks with a drier environment you can often see a tell-tale line where the finish ends along the edge of the panel where it meets the rail.
-If you prefinish just the panel edges, as some suggest, then you can see where the final finish meets the prefinish.
-If you prefinish just the panel, as some suggest, then you have trouble finishing the edges of the stiles and rails where they meet the panel at 90 degrees (this also happens if you just do the edges)
-If you prefinish all the parts then you cannot sand after you have glued to even up where the rail meets the stile, nor cut off horns left on the stiles. (Of course you need to tape off the areas like tenons you will be gluing so no finish gets on them) In other words, you must be exactly precise before glue up because there will be no more sanding or finishing, something I have not been able to do, as perfect as I am

What I have found gives ME the best result is to finish just the panel first, both sides and include the poly.

People have said you must do the same to both sides of a piece. I read a magazine article by a well-known woodworker that proved that theory is hogwash.

~Julie~
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 02:26 PM
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Hi NickBee

Just one more way

I agree with Julie the panels should not be locked/glue in place,they need the room to float just a bit...I use the item below for this job...

Panelign Strips
http://www.sommerfeldtools.com/item.asp?n=PNL1&f=1

Beautiful panel doors can be ruined by a poorly-aligned panel.
On your next door project, slip Panalign Strips into the stiles and rails to keep panels perfectly centered, while allowing for expansion.
Unlike carpet foam, which eventually loses elasticity and ceases to work, the rubber in Panalign Strips is specially designed to spring back indefinitely.
They are also the solution for a panel that has been sanded so much that it is loose and rattles: inserting the strips keeps the panel snug but not fixed.
The rectangular shape makes the strips easy to handle. Typical doors require 4 to 8 strips each.
**************

But I do like to stain all the parts b/4 the glue up, the nasty bloch from the glue over flow will show up like a sore thumb , the glue will act just like a wood sealer...
You can try a wipe it out but it will not let the stain work well..and most of the time it's in corners that you can't get into..

Once you have all the parts glued up ,then with just a bit of light sanding and a light touch up with some more stain then with a clean coat it should come out just right.

Just a note if you made the parts right you should not need to sand them down but if you need to, do it at test fit that's the time to do the sanding not after the stain job,the glue will stick to the wood with the stain in place because the stain is in the wood and not just on top of it...

===========




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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 03:57 PM Thread Starter
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ok a few things...

1) I'm not staining, keeping both the poplar and walnut ply natural.

2) I thought the idea of using ply was you don't get expansion and that it was safe to glue up.

I'll have pics of the "dry fit" in a few days (I hope). That will give you a better idea of what I'm putting together...
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 04:15 PM
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By stain, I meant anything covering the wood. The coat of Danish oil will still change the appearance of the wood.
About the ply... good question. Maybe you don't need extra space for expansion, I'm not sure I know the answer, but even with glass in a frame you leave some room around the edges.

Bob... you are telling me that with clamping from sides/top/bottom you have everything align perfectly? I suppose it would depend on the size of the project you are making. I am very precise but always have some slight slippage or areas where one piece is slightly proud of another.

Also you would pre-stain then glue and use light sanding and touch up with more stain? This does not come out blotchy?

~Julie~
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 04:45 PM Thread Starter
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mmmm,, wouldnt the Danish Oil prevent regular wood glue from bonding? This is very interesting. Like most things Im sure there is no wrong way, just many different ways of doing this.
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 05:44 PM
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Hi Julie

As you know plywood is a bit funny to work with, it's very stable for the most part but it can move just a bit and it likes to crack over time...once the glue has time to dry out the boards that make up the plywood they like to move,humidly is a real plywood killer...

When I make the parts for a door/frame. etc. the bits are always a matched set that's to say the cutters are in the same place on the shank from the bottom.
If you use a grommet in the bottom of the collet the cope/bead will be dead on... that's why they make them in the matched set way...
Many of the sets come with shims to tighten/loosen the joint and that's real key to get a nice joint so you don't need to sand the joints after the router job...as you know .001 is a bit deal when it comes to R & S joints.

"This doe out blotchyes not com?" = no ,the stain is not skin deep so to speak....with a light sanding you can add just a bit more and over come the sanding.it's the glue that will give you the nasty mark, body oil will do the same and it's always a must to wear cloves...(on the naked wood)..



============

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie
By stain, I meant anything covering the wood. The coat of Danish oil will still change the appearance of the wood.
About the ply... good question. Maybe you don't need extra space for expansion, I'm not sure I know the answer, but even with glass in a frame you leave some room around the edges.

Bob... you are telling me that with clamping from sides/top/bottom you have everything align perfectly? I suppose it would depend on the size of the project you are making. I am very precise but always have some slight slippage or areas where one piece is slightly proud of another.

Also you would pre-stain then glue and use light sanding and touch up with more stain? This doe out blotchyes not com?

~Julie~



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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-11-2007, 07:29 AM
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The plywood panel is not what will be doing most of the movement, it is the rails and stiles expanding and contracting. Since your cabinet will be in a garage and exposed to more temerature and humidity changes than in the controlled environment of a house I would apply finish to both sides of the plywood panels before assembly. Think of it as added insurance.

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