A horse is a horse, of course, of course - Router Forums
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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-24-2015, 06:25 AM Thread Starter
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Default A horse is a horse, of course, of course

Why is it that a 2 HP router is needed to put an edge profile on hardwood in one pass, or hog out wood for a mortise over several passes, but I can use only a 3/4 HP garage door opener to lift a door so heavy I cannot do it myself and it never slows down one bit?

I'm not disputing the fact, because I have personally experienced a 1 1/2 HP router bogging down in a cut. What makes the difference though? I see one motor doing a heavy chore with less than half the power rating, while another only needs to shave off wood slivers as I feed it through, and yet it may struggle.

Incidentally, I used to work for Sears, and I went to a training seminar one day where they told us they were going to roll out 3/4 HP garage door openers as a marketing ploy. At that time they said the current 1/2 HP openers would lift any door made, but people would buy into the "more power is better" idea and make their openers easier to sell compared to the competition. Seems funny to me that over time I have seen an increase in HP in almost everything, from garage door openers, routers and other power tools, lawn mowers, and even cars and trucks. Makes me wonder if the whole thing isn't geared towards just making more money somehow.

Has a 2 HP router always been available from the beginning? Sure seems that every old one I see is rated pretty weak by today's standards, and way back when dad was young (say 50 years back), older growth hardwood would have been more readily available, seemingly making it more common and therefore more power needed more often to work it. There is a thread right now where someone just bought an old used 3/4 HP Sears router. That's about as low as I've seen yet.

EDIT--One thing that just occurred to me is that HP rating itself may be what has changed. The load vs. no load rating, decimal figures rounding up to make a figure appear larger, and even such things as peak power vs. a more consistant output come into play also. With no set standards, I suppose anything is possible to see in HP ratings.

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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-24-2015, 07:45 AM
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Duane, garage door openers use gears to reduce speed and multiply torque. Router bits are powered straight off the motor shaft.
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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-24-2015, 07:56 AM Thread Starter
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Since I posted this, I was driving to work and thinking about it and I figured it must have something to do with that.
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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-24-2015, 07:57 AM Thread Starter
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I forgot to ask though, why do I see most old routers being much less in HP than modern ones?
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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-24-2015, 08:27 AM
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One other related issue is that when using 110 volt power HP ratings are all BS. The real rating for 110V equipment should be in amp draw....so many companies say incredible HP ratings, Sears comes to mind......

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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-24-2015, 08:42 AM
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One of the problems is that when the company tests their tool they have unlimited amp draw. 1 HP is = 746 watts, volts x amps is = watts, 120v x 15amp = 1800 watts. But then you have to consider that is under ideal conditions with no line loss. Most of the time if you measure the volts in your plug it will be less than 120v. I have a shop vac that says it has 6.5 HP and runs on 120v 15amp circuit. Which would be around 4849 watts draw would need to be 40.41 amps. All I know is that my 3.25 HP routers will hog out material with sharp bit and my 3/4 HP router needs multiple passes for the same job.

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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-24-2015, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Bryan Rocker View Post
One other related issue is that when using 110 volt power HP ratings are all BS. The real rating for 110V equipment should be in amp draw....so many companies say incredible HP ratings, Sears comes to mind......

Bryan
Amps... so lets bring you up to speed on amps and a whole lotta misconceptions you have...
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Power Tool Motors - Ratings Indicate V2.pdf (50.1 KB, 68 views)
File Type: pdf Rating Tools Based on Ratings.pdf (78.9 KB, 64 views)

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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-24-2015, 09:43 AM
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Duane, you can sum that up to advances in technology. The size of old 1/2 hp electric motors is about the same as a new 1-1/2 hp motor.

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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-24-2015, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane Bledsoe View Post
Why is it that a 2 HP router is needed to put an edge profile on hardwood in one pass, or hog out wood for a mortise over several passes, but I can use only a 3/4 HP garage door opener to lift a door so heavy I cannot do it myself and it never slows down one bit?

I'm not disputing the fact, because I have personally experienced a 1 1/2 HP router bogging down in a cut. What makes the difference though? I see one motor doing a heavy chore with less than half the power rating, while another only needs to shave off wood slivers as I feed it through, and yet it may struggle.

Incidentally, I used to work for Sears, and I went to a training seminar one day where they told us they were going to roll out 3/4 HP garage door openers as a marketing ploy. At that time they said the current 1/2 HP openers would lift any door made, but people would buy into the "more power is better" idea and make their openers easier to sell compared to the competition. Seems funny to me that over time I have seen an increase in HP in almost everything, from garage door openers, routers and other power tools, lawn mowers, and even cars and trucks. Makes me wonder if the whole thing isn't geared towards just making more money somehow.

Has a 2 HP router always been available from the beginning? Sure seems that every old one I see is rated pretty weak by today's standards, and way back when dad was young (say 50 years back), older growth hardwood would have been more readily available, seemingly making it more common and therefore more power needed more often to work it. There is a thread right now where someone just bought an old used 3/4 HP Sears router. That's about as low as I've seen yet.

EDIT--One thing that just occurred to me is that HP rating itself may be what has changed. The load vs. no load rating, decimal figures rounding up to make a figure appear larger, and even such things as peak power vs. a more consistent output come into play also. With no set standards, I suppose anything is possible to see in HP ratings.
3/4HP... gear reduction is a marvelous thing...
so heavy.. you need to adjust your door springs... if you don't, expect your opener to die an early death...

struggle... tool not sized to feed/speed/load/bite....

Sears.. what a joke.. I'd consider their word worthless no mater what they tried to tell me...
in retrospect a 3/4 horse over a 1/2 horse has an easier life if it's teamed up w/ the correctly sized/strengthened hardware...

money... I believe you have answered your own question but in it's defense more HP often has it's place...

2HP... yes, 3HP was too, ie, (16) -00, 11, 13, 18, 19 and 90300 from 4+ decades ago... so weren't 5's and 7.5's in the Stanley 240V 90,000 series... (commercial market)....
FWIW... a lot of trim routers were 1/2HP... IIRC 10 series Bosch from the 70/80's... I think PC had them too...

1618 - 2HP
1613 - 2HP
1619 - 3.25HP
1600 - 2.25HP
1611 - 3HP
90300 - 3 HP

HP ratings... please read the PDF's and pay close attention to what is said about amps...
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Rating Tools Based on Ratings.pdf (78.9 KB, 37 views)
File Type: pdf Power Tool Motors - Ratings Indicate V2.pdf (50.1 KB, 53 views)
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This would have been the week that I'd have finished chewing thru the restraints...
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Stick....
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"SNORK Mountain Congressional Library and Taxidermy”
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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 06-24-2015, 10:36 AM
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As Stick points out the information plates on tools are for comparison between models. There is a lot of fudge factor in most ratings but it is something to work from. A good example of this would be to compare the PC 690 series routers which are rated at 1-1/2 hp to the Bosch 1617's which are rated at 2 hp. (the 1617EVS is rated at 2-1/4 hp due to the electronic controller and the motors are different) The Bosch is quieter and you can feel the power difference when routing. This makes sense, right? 2 hp should have more usable energy than 1-1/2 hp.

Now compare the 1617EVS (2-1/4 hp) to the Bosch MRP23EVS (2-1/3 hp) and it gets confusing. The usable power should be close to the same based on these numbers but the 23 has a lot more usable power. In terms of amps the 23 should be closer to 3 hp and it does feel like it when routing. Then add in the 1619EVS which is rated at 3-1/4 hp with a lot of reserve power and yet the amps draw is very close to the MR23.

There is no service factor rating or efficiency rating on routers. All you can depend on is the hp rating will give you a general idea when comparing tools. Hands on is the best way to choose a router.
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