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Fort Ladder / Merging Threads

9K views 69 replies 10 participants last post by  RickKr 
#1 · (Edited)
Pulling together some other threads on the building of this ladder for my granddaughter's elevated fort.

Circular Saw Plunge Cuts

Circle/Radius Cutting Jig

With the handholds done, I've turned my attention to the ladder rungs. I had planned on making the rungs fro 2x6 lumber with blocks of 2x4 under each end as support. Then I decided that would make the rungs unnecessarily wide and I switched to 2x4 lumber for the rungs. Ended up not liking that width, so have settled on ripping down the 2x6 lumber and trimming the back edge at the same angle as the ladder. And using a router made recess pocket of the rungs on each side. Even though I used scrap stock to test the jigs for making the pockets in the stringers, I had to fill the first one in the first stringer, due to the change in the rung width.

I used a 1/4" round over bit on the 90º corners of the rungs, to match the pocket corner radii. That was nice as it made all of the corners exactly the same. Progress has been slow, mostly because there has been a lot of snow to shovel and blow at my daughter's. More to go, but there is light at the end, snow is supposed to slow up a bit in the next week, so maybe I'll get a little more shop time.

Rick
 

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#2 ·
You're going to need some bracing to keep it from racking...

What is your plan for keeping the stringers from spreading...?

Just looking at the angle and the hand-holds, you might check that the hand-holds are not too far out for comfortable climbing...it almost looks like a child going up might be leaning too far back to hold the stringers...just wondering...

Lookin' good...
 
#4 ·
I had not considered racking. It will be mounted permanently at the top with two 1/4" lag bolts on each side, about 18" apart. I don't see much opportunity for it to rack. I could add a cross brace, if it becomes a problem.

I was assuming the screwing and gluing the rungs every 12" would keep the stringers from spreading. Three pocket hole screws from the underside on each end of the rungs plus gluing them in place. I decided on the pocket hole screws so the screws would not be going into end grain as they would if screwed through the stringers into the rungs. I could add a couple of those too, which I considered, but dismissed as being overkill and unnecessary.

You may have a point about the handholds causing a child to be too upright. I will not be surprised if the kids ignore the handholds and just grab the rungs when climbing. If it looks awkward, I'll encourage her to use the rungs. If so, the handholds will just become decorative :smile: I put the same 1/4" radius roundover on the rear/top corner in anticipation that the rungs would be used instead of the handholds.

Rick
 
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#3 ·
To prevent spreading, you could drill holes through side, just below the step. Top, Middle and bottom. Use threaded rods with bolts on each side tightened to keep it together. Some diagonal bracing would keep it from racking. That bracing can be pretty light weight material, even aluminum bar 1/8th thick will do, and its thin enough so it can cross in the center, with a small nut and bolt through that point. That brace will prevent racking. Or you could simply put a sheet of quarter inch ply on the back. Or even small sections of ply screwed into the back of the ladder.

Not going to get a lot of stress on that ladder, but with any ladder, you want it overbuilt.

Your project is looking very good so far. Hope the snow lets up so you can get it done.
 
#9 ·
Rung Pockets Done

Results of tonight's work, finished the other 15 pockets. I had to flip the fence on the pocket routing jig for the opposite stringer, to have mirror images.

As I was working on the second stringer, the bit seemed to be dulling, requiring more pressure to move it through the wood and having tear out on the exit, which I really hated as it is the upper side where little hands might scrape. It wasn't until I got finished and inside and saw the photos I took. One, showing how the new dust hood completely encloses the open side of the router base, revealed what I think was the cause. The speed setting had gotten turned down to "5", visible in the photo I was going to post about how much I liked the new dust hood. Both symptoms make sense now and the bit is probably not nearly as dull as I was thinking.

Hardly any dust/chips escaped, except at the start when the opening in the base overhung the fence, allowing a little bit to escape. I had noticed yesterday that chips were flying out of the 3/8" edge guide rod mounting holes. I plugged them with 3/8" dowel.

I was thinking it was ready for screws and glue, but now I want to think about making gussets.

Rick
 

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#10 · (Edited)
the bit is probably not nearly as dull as I was thinking.
clean dress the bit anyways....

and this is what I mean by clipping...

....
 

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#23 ·
Yes, I get it now. I'll do it like that. I like the round over aspect also. Thanks.

Rick
 
#11 ·
Stick was talking about nipping the the sharp tips off the gusset. The gusset is an isosceles triangle with leg, leg, and a hypotenuse. He meant nip the tips off perpendicular to the legs.

I don't think I would trust the pocket screws to keep the sides from spreading. I don't trust pocket screws for much but I know lots do. I also don't see much opportunity for racking. The top will be firmly attached to a non moving structure and the bottom will be on the ground. There will be some flexing though and that's why I don't trust the screws. In a traditional wooden step ladder you only have 3/4" thick steps but they are supported by steel rods which help support the load but also keep the sides from spreading. The angle brackets Stick suggested would do that too but I would use machine screws and locking nuts to attach them so that they couldn't loosen over time. I don't know if you really need the gussets and they might get in the way when climbing. I would expect the ladder to flex a bit and some structures need to be able to flex. Too rigid and they'll self destruct over time. An airplane is a good example of that.
 
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#12 ·
Stick was talking about nipping the the sharp tips off the gusset. The gusset is an isosceles triangle with leg, leg, and a hypotenuse. He meant nip the tips off perpendicular to the legs.
I believe I am thinking the same, but here is a drawing of what I am thinking of, with radiuses, 1/2" and 1". I am inclined to the 1" radius. The 1/2" seems to get lost.


I don't think I would trust the pocket screws to keep the sides from spreading. I don't trust pocket screws for much but I know lots do.
I know many do not like and/or do not trust pocket screws. I figured they are better than similar sized screws going through the stringers into the rung end grain, plus I was going to glue them. I realize that could make it too rigid, to your last point. I just don't see this ladder getting stressed that much, similar to your comment about not much racking. As you say, some need to flex, but I don't see this flexing that much (until "I" get on it :surprise:).

I also don't see much opportunity for racking. The top will be firmly attached to a non moving structure and the bottom will be on the ground. There will be some flexing though and that's why I don't trust the screws. In a traditional wooden step ladder you only have 3/4" thick steps but they are supported by steel rods which help support the load but also keep the sides from spreading. The angle brackets Stick suggested would do that too but I would use machine screws and locking nuts to attach them so that they couldn't loosen over time. I don't know if you really need the gussets and they might get in the way when climbing. I would expect the ladder to flex a bit and some structures need to be able to flex. Too rigid and they'll self destruct over time. An airplane is a good example of that.
I do not think the gussets will interfere with climbing, based on the drawing above.

I will think on the matter of using machine screws, etc. I have a little time before needing to make that call.

Rick
 

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#13 ·
clip instead of radius...
the sharp turn will make a water let (drip point)...
as where water will follow the radius...
radius the long outside edges of the gussets...

thru screw the steps/rungs/gussets w/ RSS/GRK screws from the outside of ladder stringers...
https://www.grkfasteners.com/products/rss-rugged-structural-screw
or headlok structural screws by timberlok...
https://www.fastenmaster.com/product-details/headlok-heavy-duty-flathead-fastener.html
use construction adhesive like PL Premium instead og glue... you won't regret it...
https://www.loctiteproducts.com/en/..._premiumpolyurethaneconstructionadhesive.html

you get your flex...
you get serious strength..
you get water proof end grain..
 
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#32 ·
...snip...
you get your flex...
you get serious strength..
you get water proof end grain..
the easiest way to ''fix'' the tight dado is to shallow rabbet (cross grain) the tread... best to put it on the bottom of the tread...
you want a nice easy fit but not snug to let the adhesive do it's thing...
I was trying to leave a little room for the glue, but not too much. Clearly it has not worked out that good.

In getting "your flex", is that provided by the adhesive? Does the adhesive need to be in any gap made with the easing of the snug fit, to some thickness, so that the joint can move?

More importantly at this point, how much "fix"ing is needed, in terms of width of gap, per side, assuming straight boards?

Rick
 
#14 ·
The important thing is that you have plenty of options to consider...and that the kids will have a grand time with the fort...
 
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#15 ·
This is a cool idea but borrowing from my industrial climbing experience, personnel (children too!) safety calls for a cage around this thing to prevent or minimize falls. I know that complicates the whole idea but it's an OSHA things nowadays.

Of course, they could always wear safety harnesses and fasten to a heavy rope coming down from above - now that's where the fun would begin!
 
#16 ·
If this goes up more than 10 ft, I think a cage is in order. Falls from that height WILL break bones or cause other injury depending on how they land. Start the cage at 5 or 6 feet, and wide enough so an adult can get through comfortably. A cage will spoil the ship's ladder look unless you make it with a very open look. I bet many kids will see it as kind of a tunnel and enjoy climbing through it.

Another possibility would be to put some soft landing under the ladder. I lived next to a park once and they laid a layer of rubber particles, kind of like pea gravel, under the play areas to soften the landing if a kid fell. You could probably use wood chips for this, but there will be splinters, and it will deteriorate over time. If you use rubber particles, the base for the ladder still needs to be set on something pretty solid, perhaps a short chunk of 2x6 or 8 of synthetic decking that won't rot.

The landing pad, if you do that, would be 4-6 inches thick and wide enough to assure a falling child would land on it. Here's a link for playground safety mats. https://www.greatmats.com/playgroun...playgrounds&utm_content=Rubber Playground Mat

That ladder is too pretty for a cage unless it's tall enough to cause more serious injuries if a child falls. So I'd go with the padding. If this is where many children will find and climb it, you will have created an attractive nuisance and could have some liability issues. If it's in an enclosed back yard, the homeowner insurance MIGHT cover injuries. Damn Lawyers pop up everywhere, don't they, like weeds. Sorry to bring this up, but I remember when the playgrounds were upgraded from dirt, the city had put them in to cover their financial behinds.

Putting my little guy hat on, if I had a ladder like this, I'd HAVE to climb it.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Jig for Keeping Rungs Square

I really appreciate the discussion and idea for fastening and gluing the rungs for this ladder. Thank you all. I will go with the construction wood screws and construction adhesive. I know I've seen screws like that at the local hardware stores but I have not looked at what sorts of construction adhesives they carry. I know the brands of screws Stick posted are NOT available locally, but one brand is at one store 50 miles away. Because of the rigid mount, I may not go with gussets.

So, moving on ...

I am thinking ahead on how to hold the rungs square as they are fastened/glued to the first stringer. I am thinking all the rungs must be secured to one stringer first and then the other stringer added in a second stage. It is possible the rungs would mount fairly square without any jigging (is that a word? - sounds like a fishing action) because the pockets have been routed square bottomed and the ends of the rungs have been cut very square. But, I do not want to rely on that, solely. I would like to come up with a jig, large squares that can be clamped to the stringer and rung while it is being glued and screwed in place. I have a couple of the large construction squares and they clamp up okay with the stringer flat and the rungs sticking upward.


However, that is not a position in which I want to be gluing and screwing, from below. I am not confident that those squares will stay in place if the clamped up rungs/squares were laid over flat, so I think some blocks or something need to be attached to the squares for more secure clamping. I am okay with drilling holes in at least one of the squares for attaching blocks. Alternatively, it could work to clamp blocks to the stingers/rungs and then clamp the squares to those blocks, eliminating the need to drill and bolt blocks to the squares. But... that is a couple extra steps that may not work well with glue setting up.

Thinking further, glue and screw the two first rungs while laid flat, without clamping square. Then tilt it up so the rungs are upright and then clamp them square (as pictured) and let the glue set up. That could be done quickly and well within the glue working time (if not, I need to find a different glue as the final glue up of the second stringer is going to take much longer).


Follow that same procedure for adding the other rungs and use a lath to tack the others square, using the clamped square to align each rung, prior to tacking.


I am also starting to think about the entire gluing/screwing operation/sequence of once the rungs are all in place on the first stringer, how do I go about adding the second stringer and gluing/screwing all nine rungs? Will the working time of the adhesive allow for applying glue to all the pockets/joints, press the stringer on and then drive the screws? I am thinking that at this point the assembled first stringer and rungs can be laid flat on a bench or horses so the screwing of the second stringer could be done horizontally. I anticipate that holes for all the screws will have been pre-drilled in the stingers and the screws in place ready for driving into the rungs.

... OPEN THE FOOD GATES !!!

Rick
 

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#18 ·
I found the Loctite adhesive in two forms. Stick’s one is 3X strength, second one says 8x but says “fast grab” but neither says what the working time is. Anyone know anymore amp out these?

Rick
 
#19 · (Edited)
SEE PAGE 2....
You don't want fast grab...
and all you need to know is in the link I gave you...
open time is 15~20 minuets..
reposition time is 30~45 minuets...

.
 

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#22 ·
Thanks, Stick. I was working from my phone at the time and didn't look up the link you sent. I had gone to it when at home on my computer, but did not see a link to the data you attached to your other reply. So, thanks.

Rick
 
#20 ·
I am also starting to think about the entire gluing/screwing operation/sequence of once the rungs are all in place on the first stringer, how do I go about adding the second stringer and gluing/screwing all nine rungs?
put one tread and two stringers together. glued and screwed....
insert a spreader between the stringers to open the gap a touch.. it doesn't need to be much...
apply the adhesive to the dado...
slide the next tread into place...
remove the spreader...
install the screws...
repeat till yur done...
 
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#21 ·
To make sure the rungs are parallel and square, I think you must use a square to make sure the bottom of both rails of the ladder are exactly even. Given the care you've taken to get the steps parallel on each side, that should give you a nice, square result.

Long working time, slow setting time on the glue!!!!! You don't want to be rushed unnecessarily during glue up. Trial fit everything first without glue to spot anything that will give you problems once glue is applied.

Stick showed a picture of some steel, right angle braces that are maybe 2 inches long on each side. These will be out of the way and all but invisible, or, you can paint the hardware black so they become a feature instead of just hiding them. As stick said, this will be VERY strong and will also prevent wracking. If you use these, make sure you use sizable sood screws that fit tight in the holes in the hardware. I'd use star drive type heads so you're less likely to scar the wood if you slip, which is more likely with phillips head screws. You could also use hex head screws which would all but eliminate damage from driver slips.

I would spray paint the angled hardware and screw/bolt heads before assembly and touch them up if needed.

I mentioned the height issue if someone falls. There is a formula that states a 1 story fall, landing on your feet will cause some shock and minor injuries--more serious if the child doesn't land on their feet. From two stories, a fall will often cause severe joint damage, or if the landing is not on your feet, you riks breaking bones, or hitting your head or other vital spots on objects below--a bike or tricycle for example. From 3 stories, something is going to break, period. Four stories often is fatal and five is nearly always fatal. If a child parks their tricycle near the bottom of the ladder, a slip or fall could easily change that child's life forever, if they fall onto the bike. Same applies to any restraining structures that could be in the path of the fall.

Another safety feature, to me, would be some friction type tape on the rungs of the ladder. It's pretty cheap and HD has it. It looks nice too. Certainly a painted or slick finish material will increase the chance some over excited kid misses a step, slips, and falls. If that happens, even with only minor injuries, mom will have you over immediately to remove it.

Don't mean to harp on this safety thing, but as with all things, the devil is in the details. You have pre planned really well on the construction and really, that is a beautiful project and the kids will surely love it. As a kid, you couldn't have kept me off it.

Love this picture, and it's similar to what you're building, but imagine a couple of bikes below and kids running around, making a ruckus that distracts the climber.
 

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#25 ·
the more I look at your ladder/stairs pics... Q's arise...

what will you do for a non-skid tread surface???
how will you stop the kids from running down them face first...
face first mode will the upper tread outer edge rub against the kids calf or force the foot forward/out so that only part of the heel catches the next rung down...
this is when/where falls and broken bones/ankles happen...
 
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#26 ·
Trial Fit

Well, the ladder pieces do fit together, but not without some persuasion (no surprise).

Some of the issues I found (again, none are any surprise really):

1) I made the pockets too tight,
2) Some of the rung boards have warped,
3) Both of the stringers are warped (not badly, but enough to present minor challenges),
4) Assembly will be some work but will be a real pain unless I relieve some of the binding,
5) Assembly will take some careful planning and probably a couple trial fits to run through the process.

But, considering the above, it went together a lot easier than it might have. I did not attempt to get anything square, just wanted to see how things fit. The rungs are out of square by about 3/8".

It is a heavy beast, but I knew that would be the case.

I am fairly stoked.

Rick
 

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#27 ·
Safety Issues

I appreciate the questions and expressions of concern about safety. I cannot eliminate many of these issues and probably can only deal with a few. I can find some good non-skid tread material and put that on. Some attempts at educating the kid(s) will be made, but we all know when they get excited, they forget all that. I can find a good supply of wood chips and lay a deep bed around the base, recessed to be level with the ground surface.

On one level, I am not concerned, when I think about what is there now - that her mother put up. Two halves of an above ground pool ladder, tied to two 2x2s and tied at the top. I saw that and decide immediately that I had to build something safer. For sure, I needed something that I could climb, let alone make it safe for the kids from a sturdiness perspective.

I don't know what can be done about some of the concerns expressed. There will not be a cage that goes on it. If you notice in the photo, there is fresh lumber making a railing around a protruding part of the floor. That was a launch platform for a rope swing that the previous occupants/owners had for their kid and her friends. I put up the railing up and I think the rope swing will not be re-activated. The orchard ladder is there for installation of the railing and will go away.

Rick
 

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#28 ·
the easiest way to ''fix'' the tight dado is to shallow rabbet (cross grain) the tread... best to put it on the bottom of the tread...
you want a nice easy fit but not snug to let the adhesive do it's thing...
 
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#41 ·
Rabbeting the tread was the ticket. Thanks, Stick.

I used the TS with dado stack to cut a 1/16" deep rabbet on each under side (first photo). All of the treads have twist so I held them down in a way that the high spots could be trimmed another 1/16". All of the treads now slip in with no problem (second photo). Some are just snug enough to not wiggle and none seem too loose.

The third photo below of the ladder looks like the others posted, but it is with all the treads rabbeted. There is a slight twist to the assembly, about 3/4" over the 10 ft length. You can't see it but there is a gap between the stringer and horse at the near, left. It was easy to clamp it down straight to the horses, but it will likely be more difficult once the screws are in place and snugged up.

Rick
 

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#29 · (Edited)
At the top of the ladder you could put something like the little platform next to the pool ladder. That would form a cage, and you could put a simple trap door (if you want to get fancy) So the kids are climbing through, so the cage is part of the fun? I think you will also need some kind of handle up top for the kids to grab to pull them forward as they get off the ladder at the top. That will prevent falling backward. And you can make the cage large enough for an adult to get up there. I also think a cage with an opening will discourage the kids from going down facing forward.

The assembled ladder in the picture clearly is a ladder, not a staircase. It will sit at a pretty vertical angle. If a child tries to walk down, they will have a problem holding onto the rail, which will likely discourage stair stepping.

I do like the idea of the wood chips, but again, that will hold moisture so I'd definitely lay down a sizable chunk of synthetic decking for the ladder to sit on.

Only thing now is that I want something like this in my backyard. A small space where I can take my laptop and look out over the yard during summer. Might even run a little power and put in windows and insulation for a AC. Only need one circuit for that. None of my trees are big enough to support a treehouse, so if I do it, I'l use four 6x6s set deep in concrete. But then, my wife will demand a small art studio out there. Life gets complicated, doesn't it.
 
#30 ·
What stick suggested about rabbeting the step slightly is right on as usual. If you have a block plane or shoulder plane, that will make short work of it--likely just a couple of strokes. Or you could do it with fairly coarse sandpaper glued to a piece of wood would do but won't take off very much at a time. .
 
#31 ·
the TS is the best most accurate way to go...
 
#37 ·
Here is a better one from Hoadley's book, regarding the types of warpage. But the one you posted is still better as it shows where in the log each type comes from.

Rick
 

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#38 ·
Usually once pieces are joined a lot of the tendency to seriously warp is reduced by the forces of the joint. It's like stacking freshly sawn lumber. The weight of the stack keeps them flat while the boards dry.
 
#39 ·
Gee, I wish I had seen these pics back on your jig post. I would have suggested making a pocket, rather than leaving the back open.

Stairs are typically not assembled w/glue. There are a couple of styles that I know about & probably more. Style 1 has the slot tapered on the underside. The tread is inserted from the back and then a wedge driven underneath it to hold it in place. I've seen the wedge glued and not glued.

Style 2 has all thread under the treads, but not necessarily all of them.

Style 3, what I'd do, is use RTA connectors. The 2x lumber will have quite a bit of movement and the end grain is weak so a screw will not hold that well. However if you drill 2" from the edge vertically thru the tread and place an RTA anchor, 2 per side, you should be all set. The RTA anchor is ~5/16" metal dowel cross drilled and tapped for 1/4-20 threads. A flat head, stainless, socket cap screw will make for a classy aesthetic. Of course, drilling into the side & tread end grain to intersect the anchor is the tricky part.

Time for another jig :)
 
#40 ·
Gee, I wish I had seen these pics back on your jig post. I would have suggested making a pocket, rather than leaving the back open

....snip...

Style 3, what I'd do, is use RTA connectors. The 2x lumber will have quite a bit of movement and the end grain is weak so a screw will not hold that well. However if you drill 2" from the edge vertically thru the tread and place an RTA anchor, 2 per side, you should be all set. The RTA anchor is ~5/16" metal dowel cross drilled and tapped for 1/4-20 threads. A flat head, stainless, socket cap screw will make for a classy aesthetic. Of course, drilling into the side & tread end grain to intersect the anchor is the tricky part.

Time for another jig :)
I've used the RTA connectors before, but with the use of threaded inserts (helicoil type) in the end grain rather than the RTA anchor. I didn't know the name for them. Drilling and tapping the holes in the ends of 1x2 pine was a PIA. That project and one other were the justification for me buying a router and router table a little over a year ago. That started my current adventure into woodworking. The RTA bolts and threaded inserts were use at the corner joints for the large frame.

I've assembled a few furniture pieces that used them. I think mostly IKEA stuff. I even bought a couple of 10 ft long lengths of 1/2" dia. aluminum rod that I was going to make my own anchors from for a workbench. Never happen and the rods are sitting in storage.

I considered making a pocket for the treads, but obviously decided against it. The angle on the back of the treads blend fairly well with the stringers.

Rick
 

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#42 ·
To Drill or Not To Drill

Is there a compelling reason to NOT pre-drill the screw holes - in the receiving wood? I WILL be pre-drilling screw holes in the stringers and gussets (if I use gussets); there is no point in discussing that step. But, I do not want the screws going wanky and I do want the work flow to be enhanced by pre-locating the screws and making the process easier.

I am asking about drilling, what are essentially guidance and clearance holes in the treads, as things are assembled, using the pre-drilled holes in the stringers as pilot holes. Information from the manufacturers about using the screws is that pre-drilling is not "required", but nothing is said about any reasons to NOT pre-drill. I am not talking about drilling holes so large that there is anything close to a loose fit. I believe there is benefit in having tight wood around the screw shafts, particularly in the receiving wood, where the threads must bite and secure the joint.

I believe there is benefit for at least three reasons, 1) as mentioned, guidance, 2) speed and 3) prevention of splitting. Guidance is obvious. Speed is where no time is lost attempting to locate and start screws as the glue-up gets underway and through to completion. Splitting may not be much of a problem, but these structural screws are fairly large, on the order of lag screws. I do not use lag screws without pre-drilling, so why not with these screws as well? But, I am sure that splitting would not be good.

About the only thing I can think of that might result from pre-drilling is a reduction in holding strength. Does driving the screws into the solid wood create enough pressure around the threads that is important to its holding strenght, or something like that?

Rick
 
#43 ·
Slow day in the shop. I drilled the pilot holes in the stringers.

I also did a trial glue up of the tread, using the rabbet test piece and the stringer pocket test board. Went nicely. Glad I did as I used too much glue, but it wasn't all that bad. At first, I clamped it. Then I took a couple of the shorter structural screws and screwed the pieces together. I was impressed with how much more blue squeezed out. Testament to the power of the screws. I did not drill pilot holes in the tread piece.

Good to get a sense of how much glue to use.

Rick
 

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#44 ·
the torque factor will increase if the pilot hole for the screw through the stringer is a clearance hole..

for end grain your screws should be at least 3½~4'' long for the treads and 3~3½'' for the gussets...
3 ea screws at 3½'' or 2 screws at 4''...
3 screws per gusset...
2 through the stringer and 1 through the tread...

before you go and not make up your mind about the gussets..
every ladder you can find in a store WILL HAVE gussets..

I hope you cleaned up the squeeze out because once it cures ir is a done deal...
 
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