I'd like comments on this, especially from my friend TOM - Router Forums
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post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-10-2017, 05:29 AM Thread Starter
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Default I'd like comments on this, especially from my friend TOM

At last some truth about coal fired power stations being published by the press. It would be better had it been published in the major city newspapers especially in Canberra.

This article appeared in the Rockhampton morning Bulletin

This is an excellent piece for anybody who needs to be educated about
Australia's Coal driven power houses.
Terry is now retired and is in excellent health at age 69. Nobody paid
him to write the article which was, (to their credit), published by
the local press.

Written By Terence Cardwell <[email protected]>
To The Editor

The Morning Bulletin.
I have sat by for a number of years frustrated at the rubbish being
Put forth about carbon dioxide emissions, thermal coal fired power
Stations and renewable energy and the ridiculous Emissions Trading

Frustration at the lies told (particularly during the election) about
global pollution. Using Power Station cooling towers for an example.
The condensation coming from those cooling towers is as pure as that
that comes out of any kettle.

Frustration about the so called incorrectly named man made 'carbon
emissions' which of course is Carbon Dioxide emissions and what it is
supposedly doing to our planet.

Frustration about the lies told about renewable energy and the
deliberate distortion of renewable energy and its ability to replace
fossil fuel energy generation. And frustration at the ridiculous
carbon credit programme which is beyond comprehension.

And further frustration at some members of the public who have not got
a clue about thermal Power Stations or Renewable Energy. Quoting
ridiculous figures about something they clearly have little or no
knowledge of.

First coal fired power stations do NOT send 60 to 70% of the energy up
the chimney. The boilers of modern power station are 96% efficient and
the exhaust heat is captured by the economisers and reheaters and heat
the air and water before entering the boilers.

The very slight amount exiting the stack is moist as in condensation
and CO2. There is virtually no fly ash because this is removed by the
precipitators or bagging plant that are 99.98% efficient. The 4% lost
is heat through boiler wall convection.

Coal fired Power Stations are highly efficient with very little heat
loss and can generate massive amount of energy for our needs. They can
generate power at efficiency of less than 10,000 b.t.u. per kilowatt
and cost wise that is very low.

The percentage cost of mining and freight is very low. The total cost
of fuel is 8% of total generation cost and does NOT constitute a major
production cost.

As for being laughed out of the country, China is building multitudes
of coal fired power stations because they are the most efficient for
bulk power generation.

We have, like, the USA, coal fired power stations because we HAVE the
raw materials and are VERY fortunate to have them. Believe me no one
is laughing at Australia - exactly the reverse, they are very envious
of our raw materials and independence.

The major percentage of power in Europe and U.K. is nuclear because
they don't have the coal supply for the future.

Yes it would be very nice to have clean, quiet, cheap energy in bulk
supply. Everyone agrees that it would be ideal. You don't have to be a
genius to work that out. But there is only one problem---It doesn't

Yes - there are wind and solar generators being built all over the
world but they only add a small amount to the overall power demand.

The maximum size wind generator is 3 Megawatts, which can rarely be
attained on a continuous basis because it requires substantial forces
of wind. And for the same reason only generate when there is
sufficient wind to drive them. This of course depends where they are
located but usually they only run for 45% -65% of the time, mostly
well below maximum capacity. They cannot be relied for a 'base load'
because they are too variable. And they certainly could not be used
for load control.

The peak load demand for electricity in Australia is approximately
50,000 Megawatts and only small part of this comes from the Snowy
Hydro Electric System (The ultimate power Generation) because it is
only available when water is there from snow melt or rain. And yes
they can pump it back but it costs to do that. (Long Story).

Tasmania is very fortunate in that they have mostly hydro electric
generation because of their high amounts of snow and rainfall. They
also have wind generators (located in the roaring forties) but that is
only a small amount of total power generated.

Based on a average generating output of 1.5 megawatts (of unreliable
power) you would require over 33,300 wind generators.

As for solar power generation much research has been done over the
decades and there are two types. Solar thermal generation and Solar
Electric generation but in each case they cannot generate large
amounts of electricity.

Any clean, cheap energy is obviously welcomed but they would NEVER
have the capability of replacing Thermal power generation. So get your
heads out of the clouds, do some basic mathematics and look at the
facts not going off with the fairies (or some would say the extreme

We are all greenies in one form or another and care very much about
our planet. The difference is most of us are realistic. Not in some
idyllic utopia where everything can be made perfect by standing around
holding a banner and being a general pain in the backside.

Here are some facts that will show how ridiculous this financial
madness the government is following. Do the simple maths and see for

According to the 'believers' the CO2 in air has risen from .034% to
.038% in air over the last 50 years.

To put the percentage of Carbon Dioxide in air in a clearer perspective;

If you had a room 12 ft x 12 ft x 7 ft or 3.7 mtrs x 3.7 mtrs x 2.1
mtrs, the area carbon dioxide would occupy in that room would be .25m
x .25m x .17m or the size of a large packet of cereal.

Australia emits 1 percent of the world's total carbon Dioxide and the
government wants to reduce this by twenty percent or reduce emissions
by .2 percent of the world's total CO2 emissions.

What effect will this have on existing CO2 levels?

By their own figures they state the CO2 in air has risen from .034% to
.038% in 50 years.

Assuming this is correct, the world CO2 has increased in 50 years by
.004 percent.

Per year that is .004 divided by 50 = .00008 percent. (Getting
confusing -but stay with me).

Of that because we only contribute 1% our emissions would cause CO2 to
rise .00008 divided by 100 = .0000008 percent.

Of that 1%, we supposedly emit, the governments wants to reduce it by
20% which is 1/5th of .0000008 = .00000016 percent effect per year
they would have on the world CO2 emissions based on their own figures.

That would equate to a area in the same room, as the size of a small pin.!!!

For that they have gone crazy with the ridiculous trading schemes,
Solar and roofing installations, Clean coal technology. Renewable
energy, etc, etc.

How ridiculous it that.

The cost to the general public and industry will be enormous. Cripple
and even closing some smaller business.

T.L. Cardwell

To the Editor I thought I should clarify. I spent 25 years in the
Electricity Commission of NSW working, commissioning and operating the
various power units. My last was the 4 X 350 MW Munmorah Power Station
near Newcastle. I would be pleased to supply you any information you
may require.


Nothing but heaven itself is better than a friend who is really a friend. - Plautus

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post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-10-2017, 08:06 AM
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What amazes me is how many experts we have in the world, from second grade teachers to leaders of countries. None of these experts are willing to even listen to what the non experts (such as the author of this) have to say and none will ever change their mind. If you say something often enough and loud enough it has to be true. These arm chair experts know all about science and they wring their wrist when they meet at parties talking about how the world is going to end. The sea levels are raising! The shore line is vanishing! In 500 years where will we be able to go. Oh my oh my. How about moving 300 feet inland to the new shore line? How about taking some of the billions being spent to try and stop nature and use it to build new areas that aren't subject to flooding? How about developing drought resistant plants and how about figuring out what to do with all the excess food that can be grown with a longer growing season. How about working on the possibility that the earth could change direction and cool down and come up with a plan to provide heat so that people don't freeze to death. Galileo was arrested because he said what he thought and it wasn't what the "experts" thought. Now if you speak up you are taken to court and shut up by the legal system. When will it end....
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post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-10-2017, 09:23 AM
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Nothing new in this report. The facts favor scrubbed coal and natural gas in countries that have it, but facts and left wing politics--based on generation of bribes (contributions) do not mix. It is a truism that liberals make decisions based on emotions, and once you equate CO2 with pollution, the emotions kick in.

If you want to know what's really going on, follow the money. It is amazing that industry goes along with the scam since they pay premiums for renewable power (400 percent in California). But remember that the estimate for the USA CO2 cleanup is $3 Trillion. Government taxes and ever higher user fees will pay that tab, but the vast majority of that money will go to the copanies that will manufacture, install and operate the devices and plants and alternatie energy sources in that scheme.

A $3 Trillion pot of gold (market) is too rich to ignore, particularly since it is under government regulation and control, which always under estimates costs. The usual cost over-runs are likely to make that $4.5 Trillion over a 10 year period.

For some years in California, a legislator who had accepted contributions from a company or entity was required to recuse themselves from voting on issues that materially affected that company or individual's revenuesy. That law was overturned by the legislature a number of years ago and today, the state has something like $20 billion in debt for what was supposed to be a fast train between two small cities in the farm country of central California. Follow the money.

How else does it happen that Democrats in the USA House and Senate enter with, perhaps, a few million, but leave with hundreds of millions in personal wealth. The Republicans here aren't much better. All legislators are exempt from the rules surrounding insider trading, which will send ordinary blokes to prision in a thrice.

I am sure there are some differences between USA and Australia, but I suspect politicians are the same everywhere, and the bureaucrats that service their political schemes are certainly alike.

So abandon hope and produce children to pay all those bills. Reason and facts mean nothing when pressed up against greed, bribery and those hungry to assert their power at all costs. Prepare to pay, suckers.

The more I do, the less I accomplish.

Last edited by DesertRatTom; 11-10-2017 at 09:28 AM.
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post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-10-2017, 09:39 AM
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My two cents : Some of the same scientists who are pushing the "global warming" debate are the same ones who a few years back were pushing the idea of a new ice age. Since that never happened their argument is flawed at the least. If you take a close look at the provable science that is "in the book" it will show that the earth goes through cycles of warming and cooling. I tend to believe the facts over the unproven ideas shouted by those who believe that "the sky is falling". If the truth be told the ones pushing the green energy fallacy are the ones getting rich from their investments into solar, wind and other methods of energy production. There is nothing wrong with developing alternative methods of producing power but until those methods can produce what is needed, at a comparable cost, I'm a believer in what we already have. As to the idea of "carbon trading",which does nothing to reduce our carbon footprint, I am happy to see other countries use emerging technology to raise the standard of living of their citizens. Being a good steward to our planet is a laudable idea, being stupid to do it is not and robbing Peter to pay Paul makes no sense at all.
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post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-10-2017, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by mgmine View Post
...When will it end....
It won't. In the USA, young and very stupid people ignore history and now approve of Socialist schemes. History has been rewritten and students emerge from Colleges full of certainty, cemented by ignorance. Only Capitalists will survive. The ultra wealthy will become wealthier and owning more, and ordinary folk will be grateful for soup for dinner.

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Last edited by DesertRatTom; 11-10-2017 at 09:52 AM.
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post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-10-2017, 09:52 AM
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As a steam engineer I can say that the first part of that story is very accurate. The last part, about carbon dioxide levels, may also be very accurate but I would need to do some research to be sure. I went on a tour of a large coal fired plant in Alberta and the only thing coming out of the stacks that was visible were heat waves. My cousin, who was was touring me through the plant and was one of it's senior operators told me that the fly ash that was being collected was sold to the local farmers who used it for fertilizer. So the by product of generation could actually be considered "green".

There is nothing "green" about 1000s of acres/hectares covered with reflecting mirrors or wind towers and as pointed out they are horribly inefficient. The inefficiency itself presents a problem because our civilization has progressed to the point where we absolutely depend on stable power generation. This means that we have to either have massive overcapacity of renewable generation or fossil fuel driven thermal generation as a backup. That means that we have to pay for that massive over capacity or the second system.
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post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-10-2017, 11:53 AM
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One of things that has not been mentioned is the effect on people that these false claims ignor. I live in the state of Wyoming and this state exports 2 main products, Natural Gas and Coal. After our former President cut the legs out from under our Coal industry, thousands of people lost their jobs. I'm not just talking about the employees at the coal pits. I'm talking about the people that work at the factories that make mining equipment, repair facilities for mining equipment. there are truck drivers, train companies that haul the coal. I have never seen as many empty coal cars on train side rails as I did last summer. Groceries stores that layoff people because no one is buying groceries. Right now our biggest asset we have now is Tourism with Yellowstone national park and Grand Teton national park and Jackson for the skiing season.

Wyoming has a population of just over 500,000 people. Right now we have one of the highest unemployment rates of the 50 states. And then when the price of gasoline took a dump a bunch of the oil fields shut down. Even though I like the price of lower gasoline I hate to see all the people unemployed. Also because we collected energy taxes from coal and natural gas our tax intake has dropped so school budgets had to be reduced, county services had to be reduced and so on. One of the things we enjoy in Wyoming is no state income taxes, I'm afraid that state income taxes may be in our future.

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post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-10-2017, 04:50 PM
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Default I'd like comments on this, especially from my friend TOM

I sure wish we would quit with the political discussions on this forum, the reason Iím not on Facebook is because of silly posts like this. I could go on and tell all of you that for every T.L. Cardwell there are 32 others who dispute his findings, but youíd still believe him. T. L. Cardwell says he works inside the fossil fuel industry, so Iím sure you can bet this is a totally unbiased viewpoint. This article came out in 2011, and whatever calculations he used comparing costs have been shattered by advances in renewables where solar can now produce energy at 1/3 the cost of coal. T l Cardwell is not an expert in global warming, he only has one opinion piece, no other scholarly articles, or speeches, or anything else that I can find, but because he says what you believe he must be an expert, come on people....

I could go on, and get angry with the silliness, like claiming you canít believe science because in the 1960ís they claimed that burning fossil fuel would lead to an ice age, which science stopped claiming in the early 70ís when evidence proved otherwise. You canít believe science now because of that, but we can believe the Republican Party who up to ten years ago denied global warming until it became too real to ignore, so now they claim itís just normal cyclical warming, and yet you are willing to believe them. I donít get it.

Can we just stop with posts that you know are political? I know you get lots a affirmation of your beliefs when you hang out with a bunch of old white guys, but lucky your beliefs are in the minority and as us old white guys die off the young people will be able to realize their own vision for their future instead of the mess weíve given them.

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post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-10-2017, 06:07 PM
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@Terry Q I don't object to this kind of discussion at all. What I do object to is the phrase "Old White Guys," which in the context you use it, is highly political. I was a reporter for many years and covered lots of politicians, which is reflected in my opinion of the character of officials in either party.
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