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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-31-2018, 10:13 AM Thread Starter
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Default Things we need to know

A friend sent me this in an e-mail and I was surprised when I read it's contents !
This was written by a Canadian from British Columbia but it applies to all of us Globally.



With reference to the Electric Cars that are being displayed this week by the Auto Manufacturers has a BIG drawback that the Media, Government and Car Manufacturers are not telling you and purposefully leaving out. The quote below comes from the British Columbia Hydro Executive that supplies power to all of B.C. including Vancouver Island and parts of the Western USA. This guy knows his business and his comments are hard hitting to those being drawn in by the advertising frenzy !
The latest electric automobile Tesla puts out states you can get 500 + kms./ 313 miles on a charge in their brand new S 100e car. What they don't say is when does the gas engine cut in ? Tesla's new electric car costs $155,000+ ! Recharge time is 10 hours !

This is for Engineers out there, surely there should be a rebuttal to this article. Say it isn't true!
Hi all,
As an engineer I love the electric vehicle technology. However, I have been troubled for a longtime by the fact that the electrical energy to keep the batteries charged has to come from the grid and that means more power generation and a huge increase in the distribution infrastructure. Whether generated from coal, gas, oil, wind or sun, installed generation capacity is limited. A friend sent me the following that says it very well. You should all take a look at this short article.
Bill

INTERESTING - ONE OTHER QUESTION. IF ELECTRIC CARS DO NOT USE GASOLINE, THEY WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN PAYING A GASOLINE TAX ON EVERY GALLON THAT IS SOLD FOR AUTOMOBILES, WHICH WAS ENACTED SOME YEARS AGO TO HELP TO MAINTAIN OUR ROADS AND BRIDGES. THEY WILL USE THE ROADS, BUT WILL NOT PAY FOR THEIR MAINTENANCE!

In case you were thinking of buying hybrid or an electric car:

Ever since the advent of electric cars, the REAL cost per mile of those things has never been discussed. All you ever heard was the mpg in terms of gasoline, with nary a mention of the cost of electricity to run it. This is the first article Iíve ever seen and tells the story pretty much as I expected it to

Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power things yet theyíre being shoved down our throats. Glad somebody finally put engineering and math to paper.

At a neighborhood BBQ I was talking to a neighbor, a BC Hydro executive. I asked him how that renewable thing was doing. He laughed, then got serious. If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, he pointed out, you had to face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla, each. For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded.

This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So as our genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive, new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system! This latter "investment" will not be revealed until we're so far down this dead end road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS...!' and a shrug.

If you want to argue with a green person over cars that are eco-friendly, just read the following. Note: If you ARE a green person, read it anyway. Itís enlightening.

Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine.Ē Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.

It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.

According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned, so I looked up what I pay for electricity. I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile.

The gasoline powered car costs about $20,000 while the Volt costs $46,000-plus. So the American Government wants loyal Americans not to do the math, but simply pay three times as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country.

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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-31-2018, 12:25 PM
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There are a few facts that are off in the article Dan but it is essentially correct. This is BC Hydro's power rate, which incidentally is one of the cheapest in North America at least:
"Our residential usage charge is a two-tiered Conservation Rate. You pay 8.29 cents per kWh for the first 1,350 kWh you use over an average two-month billing period. Above that amount, you pay 12.43 cents per kWh — what we call Step 2 — for the balance of the electricity used during the billing period.(Jun 1, 2012 publish date)"

Very much usage to charge cars would keep you at the higher tier rate. Unless there is a conversion involved with the difference between kilowatt hours at the voltage the car uses compared to house voltage then the cost is lower. If there is a conversion then I can understand why they didn't get into that as most people wouldn't understand it.

The part about the grid not be able to handle it is spot on. Nor is there enough generating capacity to handle it unless you are only able to charge your car between 8pm and 6 am when demand is more slack. However, some areas still have a lot of electric home heating (Vancouver) so if a real cold snap hits they would have to issue an order to stop charging cars most likely. When I was growing up in Alabama when severe cold snaps hit they had to ask industrial natural gas users to shut down so that there was enough volume and pressure to heat people's homes.

Of course all the greens want to shut traditional power generators down which would compound the problem of supply. Our socialist provincial government just decided to go ahead with another dam on the Peace River in northern BC that was started by the previous government. You could have tipped me over with a feather when I heard that. I was sure they were going to p**s away the 4billion already spent and scrap it. Once it's built if they also increase infrastructure we might be able to vastly increase electric car volumes. For a few years at least.

Then there will be the issue of trying to recycle all those batteries, some of which have been proving to be a little problematic.

So like your article implies Dan it's not all sunshine and roses but that's not the picture we are being fed.
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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-31-2018, 01:07 PM
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I just read recently an article about old electric cars of the early 1900’s. They were quite popular for a time but then along came cheap gasoline and they quickly faded in to history. With all the misleading (you can read lies if you wish) that industry and world leaders have heaped on us in the past why in the hell are so many people ready to jump on any new band wagon or idea that a careful thought would cause a prudent person to say “What?” In my opinion self driving cars are another thing to justify careful consideration. I can see all kinds of problems with about navigation difficulties there. If a semi is headed your way and a small child runs into your path which target does the vehicle choose to avoid? Bet it’s the bigger one. I’ll just drive my old gas powered manually controlled vehicle as long as possible thank you.
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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-31-2018, 01:07 PM
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The 'greens' as you call them, are mainly idiots. Electric cars and trucks were used at the start of the automobile age. There is a reason why they didn't remain popular. And all politicians become instant experts on any subject known, as soon as they get into office. Or at least they think so.

Personally, I think a small liquid fuel engine, running full time, at a constant speed, would likely be able to power a small generator with sufficient output to charge batteries and/or run an electric motor. Small engines can be very efficient, run at a constant speed, rather than changing revs up and down. I don't know if any corporation or whatever is researching this, but they should.

My first choice tho would be a small steam engine in place of a small gas engine. They were mainly knocked out of the running at the start of the automobile age because of the time it took to get them ready for the road. Doble pretty well cured that, and could have his cars moving in about a minute, but they were costly to buy. Another issue was changing speeds on a steam engine, that is not nearly as easily done as with a gas engine. But with constant speed, those could be set up to run very efficiently, and could basically run on anything that would burn, altho liquid fuel would be most easy. A lot of people don't know it but small home steam powered generating plants were used in quite a few homes back in 1900 or so. A pilot light would keep a car ready to start very quickly. Drive to work or wherever, turn the fuel off except for the pilot light, which would not consume much fuel, come out, turn the fuel on, the pilot lights the boiler burner, put your foot on the pedal, and drive on pure electric until the boiler kicks in. Best would be a monotube boiler, a long coil, quick to heat, and if it does happen to blow it will not explode, it will simply pop a hold in the tubing, and the steam will rush out, no danger unless you are under the hood and get in the way of live steam.

Large factories used to be powered by large steam engines, mostly one cylinder. When Diesel became a big thing, most of the companies replaced the steam engine with Diesels. Fuel was high, maintenance was high. Later they found out it was more economical to replace the Diesels with the original steam engines. A lot of the companies used factory waste for fuel, maintenance was much lower, and a lot of the factories used steam in their manufacturing process. Steam was a win win. There is loads more, but that will do it for now. Oh yes, one of my dreams in life is to make a steam powered boat.
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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-31-2018, 01:17 PM
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Internal combustion engines are the: cheapest to produce, easiest to maintain, and the most efficient. Try getting 500 HP out of an electric engine that fits in a vehicle. Anyone remember the Offenhauser engines used in Indy cars? Google them. Try pulling a 16 foot camper or boat behind an electric car. Try taking a vacation from Chicago to Orlando, Florida in one; you will use the gasoline engine for most of the trip. Just thought- look at the size of an outboard engine and look at the HP it produces.
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I’m going to use the fuel cell from my Terminator to run an electric car . He has a back up power system , but not sure how long it’s going to last .

Seriously though, there complaining about people leaving there chargers in the wall causing problems . Hate to see when everyone adopts electric vehicles, as they will have to rebuild most of the infrastructure to accommodate these cars . Then watch the rates skyrocket

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knothead47 View Post
Internal combustion engines are the: cheapest to produce, easiest to maintain, and the most efficient.
Totally agree. However, if you were to go with the idea of a small steam engine powered generator, powering batteries, and/or an electric motor, you would be wrong. You can build a working steam engine in your garage, try that with even a one cylinder gas engine. And steam engines are extremely easy to maintain. But, I don't see any company pursuing that route, it will be left to private builders instead. That would be the only way I would be willing to go electric, steam, or a small gas engine, powering a generator. I know some freighters still use steam, and don't know if they are still in use, but many, many, years ago, small coastal freighters, in Great Britain at least, were powered by a one cylinder steam, often oscillating engines - oscillating steam engines are the same type you see on steam toys today, about as simple a steam engine you can get. I like steam. I bought my first book on steam in 1975, but was interested long before then.

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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 06:51 AM
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Didn't we have this discussion several months ago? This is the exact same message that was posted several months ago and several months before that there was one posted similar except it was supposedly from Australia. Most of these quotes are false.
Did anyone tell Telsa that their cars have both electric and a gasoline engine in them. They have 4-electric motors and no gasoline engine. The price quoted is off the charts and false. I think most of us need to stick with woodworking. Malcolm / Kentucky USA
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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danman1957 View Post
A friend sent me this in an e-mail and I was surprised when I read it's contents !
This was written by a Canadian from British Columbia but it applies to all of us Globally.



With reference to the Electric Cars that are being displayed this week by the Auto Manufacturers has a BIG drawback that the Media, Government and Car Manufacturers are not telling you and purposefully leaving out. The quote below comes from the British Columbia Hydro Executive that supplies power to all of B.C. including Vancouver Island and parts of the Western USA. This guy knows his business and his comments are hard hitting to those being drawn in by the advertising frenzy !
The latest electric automobile Tesla puts out states you can get 500 + kms./ 313 miles on a charge in their brand new S 100e car. What they don't say is when does the gas engine cut in ? Tesla's new electric car costs $155,000+ ! Recharge time is 10 hours !

This is for Engineers out there, surely there should be a rebuttal to this article. Say it isn't true!
Hi all,
As an engineer I love the electric vehicle technology. However, I have been troubled for a longtime by the fact that the electrical energy to keep the batteries charged has to come from the grid and that means more power generation and a huge increase in the distribution infrastructure. Whether generated from coal, gas, oil, wind or sun, installed generation capacity is limited. A friend sent me the following that says it very well. You should all take a look at this short article.
Bill

INTERESTING - ONE OTHER QUESTION. IF ELECTRIC CARS DO NOT USE GASOLINE, THEY WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN PAYING A GASOLINE TAX ON EVERY GALLON THAT IS SOLD FOR AUTOMOBILES, WHICH WAS ENACTED SOME YEARS AGO TO HELP TO MAINTAIN OUR ROADS AND BRIDGES. THEY WILL USE THE ROADS, BUT WILL NOT PAY FOR THEIR MAINTENANCE!

In case you were thinking of buying hybrid or an electric car:

Ever since the advent of electric cars, the REAL cost per mile of those things has never been discussed. All you ever heard was the mpg in terms of gasoline, with nary a mention of the cost of electricity to run it. This is the first article I’ve ever seen and tells the story pretty much as I expected it to

Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power things yet they’re being shoved down our throats. Glad somebody finally put engineering and math to paper.

At a neighborhood BBQ I was talking to a neighbor, a BC Hydro executive. I asked him how that renewable thing was doing. He laughed, then got serious. If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, he pointed out, you had to face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla, each. For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded.

This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So as our genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive, new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system! This latter "investment" will not be revealed until we're so far down this dead end road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS...!' and a shrug.

If you want to argue with a green person over cars that are eco-friendly, just read the following. Note: If you ARE a green person, read it anyway. It’s enlightening.

Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine.” Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.

It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.

According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned, so I looked up what I pay for electricity. I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile.

The gasoline powered car costs about $20,000 while the Volt costs $46,000-plus. So the American Government wants loyal Americans not to do the math, but simply pay three times as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country.
Whilst I agree with the bulk of your post, I must question the cost of electricity @ $1.16 per Kwh.
we are expensive at 24 cents per Kwh. As a point of interest we only receive just over 7 cents per Kwh for what we feed back from our 5Kw solar system.

Harry



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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 08:46 AM
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Harry, I know a gentleman who put up one of those ginormous wind mills after being told by the hydro company that they would give him so much money back per kWh, then after it was built, they gave him half of what they claimed .

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