optimized OTC hydrazine sulfate synth - Router Forums
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post #1 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-23-2019, 09:11 AM Thread Starter
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Default optimized OTC hydrazine sulfate synth

I hope that this doesn't offend anyone. I know that even if it does those that are easily offended will still read the entire article.





I cannot claim credit for the following information. It was e-mailed to me by somebody who wishes to remain anonymous; see Sciencemadness Discussion Board - from a secret admirer - Powered by XMB 1.9.11. Most of his writings are not pertinent or appropriate to the Hive.

There are other Hive posts about hydrazine sulfate from urea and hypochlorite, but none so detailed.


The hydrazine sulfate synthesis which I have done successfully many times is a slightly modified procedure based on the method described by GB392845. Everything is OTC ingredient optimized and the yields are high, the hydrazine is freebased into methanol by a modified procedure similar to GB876038. This results in hydrazine hydrate in methanol. However, if the methanol contains sufficient sodium methoxide or potassium methoxide, by methods such as US2278550 or US4267396, then anhydrous hydrazine in methanol is the result :-). Good yields of alkali azides may be obtained by reaction of the methanolic hydrazine with isopropyl nitrite. See US1628380, US5098597, US5208002. Small scale syntheses for alkali azides are favored by anhydrous methods in my experience.

[...]

There is no problem using OTC materials if you compensate the approach and adjust for total water, and keep to the molar proportions. I could write up the details for Hydrazine Sulfate OTC optimized quick and easy. The reaction is a bit complicated by foaming at a point, so a lot of empty space in the reaction vessel is required, as headroom for preventing overflows. This constraint places the yield limit to about 140 grams of hydrazine sulfate for a "pickle jar" sized reaction vessel. Actually I do the reaction in a 4 liter erlenmeyer equipped with a 4 liter foam overflow return reservoir. A 6 liter flat bottomed florence flask would be better. The oxidation of urea proceeds just fine in the cold and I prechill the basified hypochlorite to 10 below 0 degrees centigrade. Get it stirring with a large stirbar, and pour the warm urea/gelatine solution into the vortex of the mixture. I let the reaction proceed on its own gentle exotherm for about 1 and one half hours, and through to a point of 75 per cent subsiding of foaming, before applying any supplemental heating to finish the oxidation. The foaming can get wild when the heat is applied if the reaction has not proceeded far enough towards completion before the heating is applied. This synthesis goes through some interesting color changes which help to track the progress of the reaction towards completion.

About two minutes after pouring in the warm urea/gelatine solution the mixture changes from light yellowish green to white and the mixture foams to double its volume. After ten minutes the stiff foam begins to break free under the influence of the stirbar and slowly subsides while becoming more mobile and stirrable. After one hour the foam has subsided to about two thirds its initial highpoint. A slight orange color is noted. The foam continues to fall and then heat is applied very gradually, because just a small heating will kick the reaction back into a vigorous foaming, and this is when the overflow may occur. The idea is to just nudge the reaction rate a bit, and then let it proceed to run on its own energy again. The orange color will become very pronounced and darker at this stage of the reaction, as the foaming subsides nearly completely. At this point it is safe to increase the temperature rapidly up about 85 or 90 degrees centigrade to drive the reaction to completion. At the endpoint of the reaction the dark orange color will dissipate almost completely, and the solution color will suddenly fade to a very pale slight yellow tint, almost clear. When you see that color change, the reaction is complete. Peak the temperature, and then discontinue heating. Immediately remove the flask to a cool water bath.

Hydrazine Sulfate OTC optimized, Experimental:

1500 ml of 10 per cent sodium hypochlorite is placed into a 2 liter glass jar, lightly sealed with a lid, and placed into the freezer overnight to chill to 15 below 0 degrees centigrade. Into the prechilled 1500 ml of "liquid pool chlorinator" is dropped a stirbar and while stirring, 194 grams of fine prilled NaOH is added into the vortex at a rate as fast as it will dissolve and not accumulate on the bottom. Because of the exotherm, the addition must be done in two portions in order to prevent excessive warming and thermal decomposition of the hypochlorite. The first portion of the NaOH should be about 110 grams, and then the solution should be rechilled in the freezer to about 0 degrees centigrade before adding in the same manner the remaining 84 grams of NaOH. The basified hypochlorite is then returned to the freezer for keeping, and to rechill to 15 below 0 degrees centigrade for its use later in the hydrazine synthesis.

In a separate half liter jar having a lid, 132 grams of urea is dissolved in 70 ml of hot distilled water.

In yet another half liter jar having a lid, 1.8 (one and eight tenths gram) grams of gelatine is dissolved in 70 ml of hot distilled water.

Shaking of these containers will facilitate the solution, and supplemental warming of the containers in a hot water bath will also be required. After these warm solutions are prepared, and all solids are dissolved, the two solutions are combined just before use, and the combined solutions are kept standing in a bowl of warm water to mainatain everything in solution and prevent the mixture from congealing, which will occur if the mixture is allowed to cool.

A 4 liter Erlenmeyer flask is placed upon a stirrer hotplate and a three inch stirbar is placed in the flask. The heat remains off. Into the neck of the flask is placed a wide mouth plastic funnel of one gallon capacity, the neck of the funnel is enlarged with a bushing cut from a two inch length of one and five eighths OD, one and one quarter ID, tygon vinyl tubing, for a snug fit in the neck of the flask. The plastic funnel serves as an overflow reservoir and return path for any foaming which may exceed the capacity of the flask during the reaction.

The previously prepared, cold basified hypochlorite solution is poured into the flask and the stirrer started without any heating. The previously prepared, warm combined solution of urea and gelatine is poured through the funnel into the well stirred hypochlorite.

After a couple of minutes the reaction will initiate, and after fifteen minutes the foaming mixture will occupy twice the original volume, and the foam will temporarily be very rigid and motionless, but this will not persist for more than a few minutes. The foam will begin to very slowly disintegrate and stir down. The foam is viscous enough to cause uncoupling of the stirbar on the stirplate, at speed settings above 40 per cent, so it is better to have it stir successfully at a conservative setting.

About one hour after the reaction is begun, supplemental heat is applied, cautiously at first, because about ten minutes later a renewed episode of foaming will occur. This is a very transient and less viscous foaming which dissipates quickly. The onset of this foaming will be indicated by a dark orange color about the reaction mixture. When this episode of foaming occurs the reaction is nearing completion, and with increasing heating of the mixture to about 90 degrees centigrade, the reaction is complete at about one and one half hours from the beginning.

I do not even measure the temperature endpoint, but establish the endpoint by observing the color shift from orange to a very pale yellow, almost clear......very light tint to the solution. When the mixture has become hot enough, and all the foaming has subsided, the moisture will begin to reflux on the walls of the flask above the liquid and in the neck area of the flask. This happens when a mixture
is nearing the boiling point, which is plenty hot enough for this reaction. So when the refluxing moisture and color change have occured, the heating is stopped and the flask is removed to a cooling bath. After the mixture has cooled down, it is acidified by the dropwise addition of dilute sulfuric acid, with stirring, and using the same overflow funnel setup as before. 1100 ml of density 1.260 new battery electrolyte, which is 35 per cent sulfuric acid, is added at a rate of 3 or 4 drips per second to the stirred solution, and an exotherm is evident during the neutralization / acidification. The acidified mixture is cooled to about 10 to 15 degrees centigrade for precipitation of the hydrazine sulfate, and allowed to stand for several hours to complete the precipitation. Do not chill the mixture very cold or huge amounts of Glaubers Salt (hydrated sodium sulfate) will settle out along with the hydrazine sulfate.

The hydrazine sulfate is filtered and dried, yield is 159 grams.

In the previous communication about the usefulness of urea, I failed to mention a patent which shows the usefulness of urea in synthesis of methylamine. EP 0037862 discloses a high yield synthesis for methylamine nitrate. Also see GB1548827 for a closely related synthesis. It is my guess that paraformaldehyde would react with a diluted urea/ammonium nitrate eutectic. There was a mention of the nitrate process at the Hive, but no details or followup information was posted in the methylamine FAQ. Also see GB168333.
[...]
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post #2 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-23-2019, 09:35 AM
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we using this as jet fuel or medicine???
or playing Russian roulette???

HYDRAZINE SULFATE....

Overview Information
Hydrazine sulfate is a chemical used in industry and as jet fuel. Some people use it as medicine.
Hydrazine sulfate is used for many types of cancer. It is also used for involuntary weight loss in people with cancer (cachexia or wasting syndrome), but there is no good scientific evidence to support these uses. Using hydrazine sulfate may also be unsafe.

How does it work?
Hydrazine sulfate may block certain chemical reactions in the body that can lead to malnutrition and muscle wasting.

Side Effects & Safety
When taken by mouth: Hydrazine sulfate is POSSIBLY UNSAFE. It has been linked to cases of liver damage, seizure, coma, and death. Other side effects include nausea, vomiting, dizziness, drowsiness, nerve problems, violent behavior, restlessness, confusion, mood stimulation, excitement, weakness, irregular breathing, abnormal blood sugar levels, rash, and kidney damage.

Special Precautions & Warnings:
Pregnancy and breast-feeding: Hydrazine sulfate is POSSIBLY UNSAFE for anyone, including pregnant and breast-feeding women. It has been linked to cases of liver damage, seizure, coma, and death.

Diabetes: Hydrazine sulfate might lower blood sugar levels in people with diabetes. Watch for signs of low blood sugar (hypoglycemia) and monitor your blood sugar carefully if you have diabetes and use hydrazine sulfate.

Liver disease: Hydrazine sulfate might damage the liver. It might be unsafe for people with liver disease.

Surgery: Since hydrazine sulfate might affect blood glucose levels, there is a concern that it might interfere with blood glucose control during and after surgery. Stop using hydrazine sulfate at least 2 weeks before a scheduled surgery.
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post #3 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-23-2019, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stick486 View Post
we using this as jet fuel or medicine???
or playing Russian roulette???
Yeah, we want details. Hive? If you're trying to make honey I am sure you are on the wrong track.

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post #4 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-23-2019, 10:08 AM
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Got anything else to share? May be too early in the morning for me but I find this a bizarre post for this venue.
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post #5 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-23-2019, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomas1389 View Post
Got anything else to share? May be too early in the morning for me but I find this a bizarre post for this venue.
it certainly is............ ''different''........

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If only new layers hadn't been added....

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post #6 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-23-2019, 11:44 AM
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Out of the blue, unexpected, strange. Have no idea why it's posted here. Nice bit of research Stick.
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post #7 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-23-2019, 12:04 PM
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Art perhaps you could enlighten us as to what the point of posting that was. You go through great detail about the process with no mention of what it's for.

Just as a side note, one of the earliest rocket fuels was created by pumping hydrazine and fuming nitric acid into the rockets reaction chamber. I don't imagine you wanted to be anywhere near it when that happened. I haven't heard of it being used for that in decades now.
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post #8 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-24-2019, 01:03 AM
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Molecules derived from hydrazine have been used medically, but not hydrazine itself - too toxic. Also, not for synthesis in a home lab, from OTC components.

Good post to wake up to - ambushes the brain into wakefulness.

BTW, some hydrazine-derived compounds were (and are) used for chronic infectious diseases (tuberculosis), and an observation that tB sufferers became happy on them, led to the discovery in the 1950s of a class of antidepressants called Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors (MAOIs), still in use. Some herbal remedies like St. john’s Wort, popular in Germany, have MAOI activty.

Of course, one could wake up to caffeine instead.
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post #9 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-24-2019, 07:37 AM
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I have not had enough Coffee to get through this, this early, Will have to try later lol
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post #10 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-24-2019, 08:37 AM
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I took shop classes in high school to avoid the chemistry classes.
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