Another reason to hate saw stop. - Router Forums
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post #1 of 60 (permalink) Old 07-17-2015, 10:30 AM Thread Starter
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Default Another reason to hate saw stop.

To be clear I don't hate SawStop. But, I surely don't view them as the good guys...

It seems they are suing Bosch to prevent their competitive technology from reaching consumers

edit: ugh, muffed the title, should be "...reason TO hate...". would a mod please correct that?

Last edited by PhilBa; 07-17-2015 at 10:37 AM.
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post #2 of 60 (permalink) Old 07-17-2015, 10:46 AM
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done...
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post #3 of 60 (permalink) Old 07-17-2015, 10:47 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks, Bill...
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post #4 of 60 (permalink) Old 07-17-2015, 10:56 AM
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Hi Phil,

Out of curiosity, what do you think Sawstop should do about Bosch ? If Bosch is infringing on the patent, and Sawstop doesn't object, it is my understanding they essentially lose the patent. Now don't get me wrong, I would like to see this safety "improvement" in all saws, and I would like to see the price down as much as possible. So I am unsure what Sawstop was supposed to do. I am hoping that Bosch at least tried to license the technology and Sawstop refused or asked an unreasonable price.

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post #5 of 60 (permalink) Old 07-17-2015, 11:15 AM
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Bosch's system is not identical and does not destroy the blade . How is that patent infringement ?
I wonder if there's any among us that worked in that department and could shed some light?

I almost bought a SawStop and still wish I did . Well unless GI comes up with a better system like Bosch
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post #6 of 60 (permalink) Old 07-17-2015, 11:31 AM Thread Starter
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As I understand it, Reaxxx drops the blade while SS stops it. I've done a lot of patent work and, in general, most lawsuits are either against a direct copy or completely tactical (to slow down the competitor). I believe SS in the later camp. It's possible SS has something unique in the sensing area but there is a long history (aka prior art) there. There are very few patents that can't be worked around. I expect Bosch was all over this when they designed Reaxxx. Also, a good patent litigator can twist anything to their client's desire. I personally have a patent on using -1, no kidding.

Also, SS has used political and legal approaches in the past. They tried to get legislation passed preventing sale of saws that don't have something like their safety feature all the while refusing to license the technology. These aren't "the we're looking out for you good guys" but just another corporation trying to gain unfair advantage. Corporate hardball. They all do it but I dislike their holier than thou approach.

Want to bet the end result is a patent cross licensing deal? Bosch will pay to make the problem go away. That's usually how these turn out. Though SS may be trying to squeeze royalties out of Bosch.
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post #7 of 60 (permalink) Old 07-17-2015, 11:33 AM
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I don't think you can patent an 'idea' to 'stop a saw blade for safety'. It is the manner of stopping it that is patented.

If you could patent an 'idea' then you'd be paying a lot more for your mobile phones as they were an idea to communicate on the move.
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post #8 of 60 (permalink) Old 07-17-2015, 11:35 AM
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SawStop has every right to defend its patents. That said, in some cases patent law has openings for other inventors to improve upon existing patents. Also defense of a patent has to prove that there wasn't already something similar already done. I am not a lawyer, and I don't know of SawStop's each individual patent, but what I have observed is, the bosch technology works completely different. Rather than using a strong spring and an electrical charge to force an aluminum break into the blade, and the motion of the blade brings the blade under the table. Where as the bosch uses a high powered piston that quick pushes the still spinning blade under the table.

Two areas where I see where SawStop could contest a patent. The first is the flesh sensing aspect itself. SawStop didn't invent that concept. The simple idea comes down to flesh coming in contact with a metal object that has a charge running through. The contact of the flesh causes a drop in the voltage. It is the same principle that touch lamps and other touch sensitive electronic devices have used for decades. The other area is the diagnostics both table saws run before allowing the saw to run. While it may seem innovative, that concept too has been around for a long time. Whenever you start your car, the airbag system runs one so that it won't deploy if there is a problem, preventing unwanted deployments. (Note, Bosch's technology is based on their airbag technology)

As I said, SawStop has every right to exercise their patents, but I don't think it is going to be an open and shut case that SawStop is hoping for. In fact I suspect their will be multiple verdicts in this case over the next several years.
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post #9 of 60 (permalink) Old 07-17-2015, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBa View Post
Also, SS has used political and legal approaches in the past. They tried to get legislation passed preventing sale of saws that don't have something like their safety feature all the while refusing to license the technology. These aren't "the we're looking out for you good guys" but just another corporation trying to gain unfair advantage. Corporate hardball. They all do it but I dislike their holier than thou approach.
First, I am not real in favor of mandating technology, as the consumer should be able to make that choice. However, playing devils advocate, part of why the legislation never gained much traction was SawStop is the only player in the market, and that legislation would effectively create a monopoly. Having a competing technology would actually benefit SawStop in this case.

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post #10 of 60 (permalink) Old 07-17-2015, 11:47 AM Thread Starter
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I recall reading somewhere that the Bosch system has different sensing. SS doesn't work on wet/green wood or metals because of their approach and that bosch has a way around that. I haven't studied this that much and am just reporting what others have written but if that's true, then the sensing argument may be a tough one for SS. Still, like I said, a good patent litigator...


@MikeMa , yeah, that was why. I too am opposed to mandates like that preferring the marketplace to decide. Though, I suspect if the tech is common enough, the insurance companies will make it a reality.

Last edited by PhilBa; 07-17-2015 at 11:50 AM.
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