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Intro and question

8K views 20 replies 12 participants last post by  dekfin6 
#1 ·
Hi,
I found this site while posing the question of what router to buy. I am new to woodworking and am very excited to get started.

I would like to buy something in the 'combo' fashion and I would like to get a table that is suitable for it. I plan to use it quite a bit and want something that will accomodate more advanced technique as I grow into it.

I am looking at Bosch and Porter-Cable primarily but am interesting in hearing your opinions while I look at the site further.

thanks much! John
 
#2 ·
Hi John and, Welcome to the forum.

Both are good routers. My choice would be the PC combo.

Gene
 
#3 ·
Welcome to the forum John. Bosch and PC are both good choices, Craftsman has come a long way in recent years (usually a little less expensive than the major brands).
With that being said, you have to get out there and get a "feel" for the router. I can tell you want I like until I'm blue in the face, but if it doesn't feel right to you, you won't be happy with it.

Search the forums here, there are several threads on just this topic.

Good luck,
Ross
 
#4 ·
Welcome to the forum, both are good routers, I have a Ridgid and like it very much. From what I hear around here, the Sears have come a long way and maybe next time I will look more closely at that one. Router tables are a varied as you have owners. Seems most get started and the table evolves over time. Be sure to be safe.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Hi John: Whoa hold on charlie! What do you propose to make with your new router? Your <=2HP routers are pretty little things and are nice to do a few things with and park on the shelf but if you really want to get involved, nothing beats a good heavy >3 HP variable speed, plunge that can handle some good sized bits. Now, you've got plenty of power and lots of versatility. You can do anything with this class of router.

===================

Router Classes: I'm going to stick my neck out here and try this.

Rotary Tools: these can be used as routers and indeed have attachments that allow them to perform the plunge function. Typically they will use 1/8" shank bits and there are a wide variety available. The shank is the part of the bit that inserts into the armature of the tool. The dominant name would be Dremel.

Drywall Router: typically known as "RotoZip," this is a laminate trimmer with a "special" side cutting bit. Useless for most other projects. One of our members uses his on a duplicator.

Laminate Trimmers: these are "light" routers. Typically they are high speed, low power that are designed for quick, low stress work. Some come with variable speed but that is counter-intuitive since lower speed will add to stress on an already weak motor. This class will take small diameter 1/4" shank bits.

"Inlay or Detail" routers: I didn't get a howl of protest but I got a very carefully considered rebuttal (below) so I'm modifying as per that discussion.

nickao65; said:
A regular sized router can be to big and cumbersome for some of the finer work, even with a clear base it's tough to see and on the smaller work, the base can be too big. Also sometimes the finished piece I am routing into is just too small and the regular routers base could cover the entire project. It worked, but I was never comfortable.

With a picture inlay sometimes I need 1/8" or 1/4" grooves a 1/2" deep in woods like Cumaru, Massarunduba and even harder woods. And they need to be made in one pass. Although a Bosch Colt has the power the lack of a plunge was a hassle. I needed something in between a laminate router and regular router size, with a touch more power and a plunge base. The trend T4 fit the bill for me exactly. It is stronger than the Colt router and small like a laminate router.
Routers: If it pushes more than 2HP and can reach >24,000 rpm, you can accomplish a fair amount with this class of router. I would peg the size more than 2HP but less than 3 HP. Variable speed is preferred but I would think, in this size, cheaper is better. Eventually, you're going to spend the money on a major router (below) so save it here and spend it there. A 1/2" chuck is a bonus but don't expect to handle good sized bits with this machine, hence the cheaper is better.

"Major" Router: Everyone makes an entry into this world. If you make a router, this is the one you make. It can be heavy (and usually is >12lbs/5KG). Their biggest advantage is they are big and heavy enough to handle any job you want to throw at them. The biggest disadvantage is they're too big and heavy. You will develop muscle using one of these all day long. However, major routers work very well in tables and on skis and in vertical tables. Template work may require an oversized base or shiis. This is a functional replacement for a shaper. If you can't afford a shaper, there is a good bet that you can do almost all the jobs with this router than you can with a shaper. It may not be as efficient but the results should be comparable.

==========================

The router, (except the "major" ones) consist of a motor barrel and some sort of base that will register the bit at 90degrees to the workpiece. The variable in the function of the base is the manner in which the bit is applied to the workpiece.

Router Bases

palm grip/barrel: this is the laminate trimmer, palm grip routers as in the Makita Laminate trimmer or the Bosch "Colt" palm grip router. Depth adjustment can be precise or "close." The usual function of this base is to hold the bit at 90 degrees to a counter top to remove a thin piece of plastic laminate. The router is light to allow one handed operation. Wrap your hand around the entire router motor.

Fixed Base: these will have a large adjusting ring or some method of sliding the router barrel up and down thus setting the depth of cut. Plunging must be accomplished by tilting the base and carefully allowing the bit to cut into the workpiece. There would be two knob handles one on each side of the base. This is the preferred base for sign cutters but with a clear baseplate.

It must also be noted that this type of base is best used for edge rounding etc. where one approaches the workpiece externally.

Plunge Base: as the name implies, the router bit is started outside of the workpiece and inserted vertically into the material. The action would be the same as a drill press. Indeed, certain repetitive drilling functions are better performed using a plunge router.

It must be noted that cutting circles with a plunge base requires a "running start" so that you don't get an oversized divit in the starting point of the circle. Does this make sense?

"D" handle: a variation on the fixed base but providing a different method of holding onto the router. Typically, one side of the base will have a handle that you can wrap your entire hand around, like a hammer handle. On the other side would be a knob or some other holding method. This base allows one handed operation for light work but two handed for heavier tasks.

This functions the same as a fixed base router with the same limitations. However, this style of router and base are light enough for one handed operation.

==========================

At this point I have to warn you, you do not purchase "a" router, you merely begin a collection. I only have four/five if you include dremel. I'm constantly on the lookout for others but I always buy used and always major brand names with proven track records. I'm partial to Makita and own quite a few of their tools. I've picked up some pretty raunchy stuff at garage sales and every time I call for a part, it is available. The worst case, I waited 2 months for a gear for a 30 year old electric drill.

On the other extreme is Craftsman. I have a milk crate full of Craftsman tools looking for parts that are no longer available. I keep them as a reminder of money wasted.

Moral of the story, make sure you can get parts before you buy any tool. They don't wear out. They do break, usually as a result of mistakes and need to be repaired. Once repaired, they will continue to perform for many years.

=======================
So, the next question is how do you use all of this stuff. Well, here are a few "different" methods of using a router. Please note, that this list is far from exhaustive and subject to change, frequently.
======================

Physically challenged aids- some interesting stuff for some of our physically challenged members. You must stop by. Necessity is the mother of invention and this is where necessity exercises the little gray cells.

Horizontal table this is a standard horizontal table with a hole in which the router sits with the bit sticking up ready to chop away at anything that gets within reach - including your fingers. It is usually supported by some sort of fence either fixed or adjustable.

Philosophy plays a big role here. There is the OakPark/Router Workshop philosophy "frugal reigns" and simplicity with elegance. To change a bit, take off the fence (if it's in the way) lift out the router, change the bit, set the depth and dump the router back in, clamp in the fence and away you go.

The other philosophy is to spend gobs of bucks for stuff that may meet your needs, with more gadgets than inspector gadget has imagination... Needless to say, I follow the OP (Oak Park) philosophy but implement it sparingly and only as needed.

vertical table take the table, above, and stand it up on its edge and work out some method of raising or lowering the bit to the table. All of the adjustments for a horizontal table, just vertically.

baseplate A baseplate provides some basic functions. It is a mounting point for a router into a table, or onto skis, or on jigs of various types. They can be phenolic, lexan, aluminum, iron... They are usually drilled to accept your router and to allow a template guide to be fit into the baseplate.

However, baseplates can be long for cutting circles, skinny for offsetting the weight of a router when doing edge treatments and you want to stop the router from leaning over. (Shiis perform the same function but differently and with less flexing.)

template routing Almost every router comes with the ability to implement templates, except some sort of idea how to do it. The other frustration is that no template guide will fit another router. If you have three different routers, it is conceivable that you'll have to get three different sizes of guides.

The guide will fit into the baseplate. The bit will protrude through the guide. Take a 1/4" thick strip of plywood or wood, set the router on top of it, butt the guide up to the strip and push the bit through the template guide. If the router were turned on, you'd be cutting a groove dictated by the position of the strip. Neat tricks here. Search templates for "Template Tom" and a myriad of his, and others, creations.

circle template/elliptical jigs I stuck these two together because they perform a similar function, however their structure is completely different from each other. Look for these throughout the fora.

inlay Inlay work is also called marquetry (I think.) You remove some material and stick another material in to provide contrast or other artistic embellishment. My only attempt at inlay resulted in my purchasing a planer to remove the miserable attempt. If I were to attempt this again, it would only be under the express tutilage of a few of our members.

duplicator A duplicator is just that. It allows the router to be used to duplicate other three-dimensional objects. Sort of like a super-carver. Carve one original and the duplicator will mass produce the copies.

I prefer to think of the duplicator as the hand operated CNC (Computer Numerically Controlled) machine.

pantograph You used pantographs probably when you were a kid. It was the device that allowed you to shrink or grow a picture. Our router versions have proven to be less than roaring successes.

routerlathe This is a real interesting tool for me. The router sits up on top of a turned workpiece. As the workpiece turns, the router moves along and "mills" a detail into the workpiece. Spirals, flutes and a wide variety of other effects are possible.

pin routing is the reverse of a template. A template is a negative of the cut pattern. Pin routers use a template but a positive template. A pin is anchored over the router bit. The positive template is attached to the work piece and brought up to the pin. Follow the template with the pin and the router will cut an exact duplicate. I can accomplish something similar with a bearing on a flush trim bit but there are those who could argue that it is entirely different, although I don't know how.

Bearings A pin router requires a positive template. A bearing uses a positive template exactly the same way but the template runs along a bearing attached to the top of the bit. Neat twist here though. Vary the size of the bearing and you can "adjust" your workpiece subtlely.

skis Skis are probably one of the most useful and unknown mounting strategies for routers. Search for "Skis for neophytes" for an article I wrote on skis.

shiis This is a term that I coined to describe two sticks that are flush with the baseplate but extend out on both sides of the router. If you're cutting a template, the shiis will stop the router from "falling" into the hole left by the removing material. You can also do bearing edge treatments using shiis. Put one hand on the shii toward the centre of the workpiece and the other on the router. The inboard end of the shiis will act as a cantelever to the weight and torque of the router.

foots A foot (plural is foots - multiple of a single foot as opposed to feet that come in pairs) provides a different support point for cutting templates. It allows you to support the router on the outboard side when cutting templates.

==================
Jigs
==================

dovetail jig A dovetail jig is thrown in here because it is very popular, not because it belongs. Everything to this point has been some method of attaching or controlling the router itself. A jig is used to control or guide the bit or hold material and guide the bit. What is above is used to mount or support the router, not guide the bit.

That is the first and last jig that I'll list. Bob3J creates multipurpose engineering and artistic marvels for the fun of it. He can't even begin to list his creations. How do you expect me, a beginner, to list something I can't even figure out what it's for!

Allthunbs
 
#6 ·
I have a Trend, its a plunge router not a laminate router, only about 6.7 amps so stronger than a laminate router, but not 2 Hp.

I think "toy" router can be replaced with inlay router or detail router. They are not toys you can kill yourself with one.

I do agree with most of everything else.
 
#8 · (Edited)
A laminate router is to small not enough power for the super hard woods I use, especially the older models.

A regular sized router can be to big and cumbersome for some of the finer work, even with a clear base it's tough to see and on the smaller work, the base can be to big. Also sometimes the finished piece I am routing into is just to small and the regular routers base could cover the entire project. It worked, but I was never comfortable.

With a picture inlay sometimes I need 1/8" or 1/4" grooves a 1/2" deep in woods like Cumaru, Massarunduba and even harder woods. And they need to be made in one pass. Although a Bosch Colt has the power the lack of a plunge was a hassle. I needed something in between a laminate router and regular router size, with a touch more power and a plunge base. The trend T4 fit the bill for me exactly. It is stronger than the Colt router and small like a laminate router.

So what do you call it?

I call it my detail or inlay router.

http://www.trend-uk.com/en/US/product/U*T4EK/2/2/router_14"_11_hp_110v_usa_cw_kitbox.html

Its small, but its no toy.

I got mine for 97.50 including shipping and I say it is better than the Colt. To me the plunge makes it better right there.
 
#10 ·
Hi Nick: Ok, I stand educated. I'll modify the above according to your comments. Nicely done.



I did not consider inlay work in my consideration of routers. I have an inlay bushing but my only attempt to use it failed miserably. Can you give us a pictoral essay on inlays and some of the finer points? Maybe under a different thread?

Allthunbs
 
#11 ·
Thanks Allthumbs....very informative and appreciated! I bought the Bosch evspk
and might also but the larger triton as I found a good deal on one at $200....or at
least I think it's a good deal?
I also got the Bosch table and plan to build a seperate one for the triton should I get it.
Do you have recommendations for plans?

I am going to build furniture, cabinets, doors, and bookcases; I think someone asked? I live in rural Arkansas and will be remodeling a home and later on, building furniture including some rustic and log pieces.

Very glad I found this place as I think my router(s) will see a lot of action!
 
#12 ·
Hi John: Interesting choice. 2.25 HP, 8,000-25,000 rpm, variable speed, soft-start, fine for many applications, but don't try more than 1 3/4" bits. Things I like: variable speed good range, soft start, light enough for many uses; looks like functional accessories;
Things I don't like: motor too weak for heavy constant use in spite of "overload" protection circuits; too powerful and too light for one-handed operation i.e. "D" handle use; above-table adjustment too time consuming; sounds like proprietory template guide system; precision centering design?? -- never seen this one actually work;

In spite of what I may say, this sounds like a good entry point router. I've considered something in this class and I always end up getting sidetracked.

HarrySin can provide comment on the Triton and as for tables, this is one of the more prolific discussions around this forum. Search "router table" in the search window and you'll see what I mean. I'd scan through and look for pictures and if you find something interesting, do a bit of reading. By the time you spend 1/2 hour looking at pictures, you'll have an excellent idea of what you want. Some fellows use old tables, desks, boxes built on top of workmates, plywood added to the end of a table saw and one fellow claimed the "ugliest router table" that works beautifully.

Now that you've got the tool, what's your first project? Take a chunk of something 12" long and round over the edges. Stick in three big nails equally spaced across the middle. Using a few other nails or screws attach it to the wall. You now have your very own coat hooks inside the door of your shop. You can even pretty it up a bit.

Allthunbs
 
#13 ·
Thanks again. Actually, I have already started on a bench and will edge the seat with the router. Of course, I will practice first!

I am very new to this but I agree with your statement re: the power. I figure to use this on smaller projects/needs and the larger for big, thick items. I already have a piece of laminate countertop with a backsplash that I kept from our first home and plan to use it for the table if possible. Its pretty thick and sturdy.

I'll do the search on tables and thanks again!

BTW, is $200 for the triton OK?
 
#15 ·
General Membership Comments Please



Hi John: I don't know about the price of the Triton. I usually buy my routers in garage sales, if they're cheap enough.

The more this conversation continues, the more it evolves.

Comments Please: Above I allude to the premise that more powerful routers are better for versatility but John's comment (above) brings something else to mind and I'd solicit comments from the general membership: to wit; that the more powerful the router the greater the ease that a given task can be accomplished thus reducing operator fatigue in spite of the larger size. This would become a factor only when a router is being used for an extended length of time.

John's comment was "to use this on smaller projects/" and I asked myself "what is a smaller project?" Would rounding over 1,000 pieces of 6"x8" stock be considered a large project or 1,000 small ones. Would the smaller 2HP router be more effective than the larger >3hp size? Or would hanging onto the smaller, lighter, 2HP be more tiring than the larger "more comfortable" 3HP one?

Alternatively, could 1 @ 3'x5' mirror frame with 60 feet of molding to be routed in five layers be considered a "large" project? It is a fraction of the size of the one above in both time and effort but a substantial increase in sophistication.

At what point would you define a "small job" suitable for a 2HP router become a "large job" more suitable for a >3HP router.

To put the general size of a >3HP router into perspective, a top level "Tour de France" cyclist, reputed to be the most fit group of people on the planet routinely generate 1/4 HP. We're talking about routers that generate power to equal 12 cyclists.

Harry have you done any tests around this?

Allthunbs
 
#14 ·
Omg!

Man, This thread contains the absolute best information about router selection I have ever read. I wish I had read something this comprehensive before I began my route to rout.;)

I own 3 PCs of varying size for different applications, one Freud monster I use for bench work and, after reading this thread, my next router will be the Trendline.

I need each router I have, but I probably could have saved some $ and had a better fit to each application had I read your thread (had it existed) before buying each one.

Thanks a bunch, guys. I'm :sold: on this forum!

Gene
 
#16 · (Edited)
Man, This thread contains the absolute best information about router selection I have ever read. I wish I had read something this comprehensive before I began my route to rout.;)

I own 3 PCs of varying size for different applications, one Freud monster I use for bench work and, after reading this thread, my next router will be the Trendline.

I need each router I have, but I probably could have saved some $ and had a better fit to each application had I read your thread (had it existed) before buying each one.

Thanks a bunch, guys. I'm :sold: on this forum!

Gene
Hi Gene: Thanks for the vote of confidence but you don't get off that easily:-( You say you own 3PCs of varying size and a Freud monster. We would like to hear of your purchases, why and how you did purchase and how might you consider purchasing in the future and where and why you feel you might have gone wrong? This is the part that really helps. Use my breakdown as a guide if it helps but put it in your own point of view.

Thanks for the input

BTW Gene, Isn't "Snowflake, AZ" an oxymoron? Has it ever snowed in Arizona? All we ever hear about Arizona is desert. Too many spaghetti westerns;-)

Allthunbs
 
#17 ·
John, I think you will be very happy with your 1617. I own two and they are my favorites by far. There are few jobs the 1617 will not tackle, and as far as larger bits I would not be concerned using vertical panel raising bits with the speed set to the lowest setting. Horizontal panel raising bits are a little on the large size and would be better used in a 3+ hp router. You asked about table plans, and I would suggest the Router Workshop table as the best choice. Plans are about $4 from Oak Park, link on our home page. Another very good choice is the table from ShopNotes #1 which can be seen on the new PBS show WoodSmith shop. I built that table and loved it, sold it and bought a Router Workshop table. Either way you will be happy with these tables.
 
#18 ·
John,
Welcome to the forum. I have the Bosch 1617 Combo kit and have been pretty happy with the performance vs price. I like the ease of adjusting and changing bases.
I currently own 4 including my dremmel.
The first was a Craftsman, which is now 20+ years old. It only came with the 1/4" collet, and I never got around to getting the 1/2", althoguh that was the plan at the time. My next was the Bosch 1617 combo kit, based on input from a few guys at aowoodworking show three or four years ago. (google "problems with the Bosch 1617" and you can see they tend to just not start again) I have had this problem two or three times, but Lowes has always taken care of me.
For heavy duty I bought a 3 1/4 hp PC, but immediately mounted it in a table after one use. I was really tired after putting in a few rabbits and daddos in a wall unit I built.

My next router I am going to check out the titon, have a lot of good things about it, but have yet to be able to touch, feel one in my hands.

No matter which one you deciede on as your next, and yes there will be a next, read the forums here, tons of good info, like in this tread as well on tables & fences as well as dust controll, jigs, set up etc. It is almost adictive!

Welcome again,
Mike
 
#20 ·
I have two Bosch 1617 evspk's, fixed and plunge base kit. Very happy with them. Finally saw a Triton while traveling and see why it would be great under a table. Does not look like something I'd like to horse around for freehand type stuff though. It is likely my next table router, replacing the 1617 in the table, although I really like the 1617 in the Rockler lift in my table. Haven't maxed out the Bosch yet so the Triton will have to wait.
 
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