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Group Cyclone Dust Collector Build

19K views 99 replies 23 participants last post by  tomp913 
#1 ·
OK, guys, since there are no projects going on I thought that I would start this for forum discussion.

I built a stand for my new DeWalt 735 planer. I still have two drawers and doors for the front to build, then pop some finish on it to provide some protection. I will then install the infeed/outfeed tables and an iGaging 510 on the planer and remount it to the stand. Hopefully, I will get some “me time” this weekend to finish up, in spite of the heat.

I’ll admit that I have been putting this chore off.

Now for the discussion:

I will be eventually hooking up an Oneida Dust Deputy to address the dust collection for the 735. Since I have little or no free floor space I will be going up (as opposed to out) with the DD and the old 16 Gallon Craftsman shop vacuum that I will be using.

Now there are several ways to do this. One is to build a roll around cart to stack the shop vac and the DD on. This makes it very portable, light and compact. A good example of this would be the build from Jay’s Customs Creations.

Make a Shopvac and Cyclone Shop Cart | Jays Custom Creations

The down side type of arrangement is the noise from the shop vac. Although not as bad as some, this shop vac can still be annoying and I would prefer to muffle the noise as much as possible. However, in order to accomplish this I will have to build some sort of a cabinet to enclose the vacuum. There are a lot of designs out there (youtube). Some use sound deadening and some use baffles to suppress the sound. Some use a combination of sound deadening and baffles. However, my footprint would increase slightly, the unit would be taller, and it would be heavier and more bulky to move around.

Examples:






So, let’s discuss, specific, practical examples of how some of you have or would addressed this issue,

Valid pros and cons on the means and methods of sound suppression.

Source of low cost sound deadening material, if it is used,

Other non-sound deadening solutions designs, etc.,

Just to get juices flowing.

If we can come to a consensus and as a group nail down a design I will undertake to do a step by step photo tutorial and build the unit.
This will get me the best bang for the buck based on collective experience and hopefully provide some incentives for the newer or less experienced members.

Here is a photo of what we will be working with for this project.

Bill
 

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#2 ·
Hey Bill...

just hooked up my 735 a little while back. Hooked up to a 5hp craftsman shopvac. and dust deputy. Between the shop vac and the DD I still get a good bit of chips that do not get collected by the system. The 735 really must push out some volumn because it has blown the top off my DD twice now (PLastic bucket, not a metal container) what a MESS!! :) geesh. Looks like the metal can has a positive lock so I think you should be good to go. I'd put a couple of handles on that can to make it easier to tote around after its full.
I got the HEPA filter for the Craftsman vac. A little more expensive up front, but blowing it clean is alot easier and quicker than the old paper filters.

I guess its ok to enclose the vac in some kind of housing, but I'd still be leary of heat buildup.

Most excellent idea on the build and making a tutorial out of it...by its nature alone I think this might generate alot of interest...
 
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#5 ·
Hey Bill...

The 735 really must push out some volumn because it has blown the top off my DD twice now (PLastic bucket, not a metal container) what a MESS!! :) geesh. Looks like the metal can has a positive lock so I think you should be good to go. I'd put a couple of handles on that can to make it easier to tote around after its full.
I had the same problem. I used a 20gal plastic bucket which was a bad idea because it didn't have the structure to not partially collapse under vacuum. I built an internal "rib cage" out of a spiral length of 1/2in PEX - fixed that problem. Regarding blowing the lid off - had that problem too. Fixed that with a couple 2x4 lengths that I wedge between the cyclone top and the shelf support above where the vacuum resides..
 
#3 ·
Bill, interesting timing on this thread - I'm interested in seeing some of the responses. About a year ago, I built a setup as you described (vacuum over shop-made cyclone) on a open 2 tier wheeled cart (specifically built because of my DW735, I just disconnect the vacuum when connected to the planer). You are correct on the noise irritation - I used to cringe turning it on for a quick cut. I had a noise dampening enclosure project on the books for a while. I finally gave up on it because I couldn't justify the sound proofing material I could find, or afford the additional foot print I thought it might take. And I wasn't sure about the potential heat build-up or minimum air circulation required. I caved and upgraded my old Rigid shop vac to a quieter Rigid. Much better but I'd still prefer less noise.
 
#4 ·
I am sort of doing something similar. I am planning to build some type of rolling cart. I wanted to go vertical rather than side by side for save a bit of space. I have a 20g fiber drum, a ridgid shop vac and of course the Dust Deputy. I am trying to figure out how best to plumb it using as much pvc pipe as possible for a smoother air flow. The Dust Deputy has 2" outlets, the shop vac as 2 1/2". Does anyone know if it works better to go down 1/2" to 2 inches or up to 3" for the pvc piping ? I have no background in air flow. :)


Gary
 
#14 ·
Gary,

Basically, Bernoulli's Law states, that, for a given volume of flow the larger the pipe the slower the flow. If you reduce the size of the pipe you increase the velocity of the same flow.

Sometimes this can work for you or against you depending on the circumstances. The Dewalt 735 has a four inch dust connection port, BUT, it squeezes down to around 2-1/2". It, also, has an internal fan that shoots the debris out of the unit. In the case of the DD the volume of the debris may be too much and have a tendency to "log jam" at the DD intake. However, add a 4" and you now slow down the velocity and gives the debris time to spread out before it squeeze back down and get sucked into the DD port.

Once you separate out the chips and the rest of the big stuff, theoretically, only fine dust exits out of the DD to the shop vacuum cleaner. No concern for "log jam" here.

So, theoretically, you want a larger inlet based on this. I would use the 3" or even go up to 4". Be aware, there may be a case of diminish returns here.

Bill
 
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#10 ·
Point well taken, however, I would be using it for other equipment, also. The 735 is just a place holder for the project.

Bill
 
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#8 ·
All thickness planers produce a tremendous amount of debris. I do not use a separator on mine; I use it outside and just empty the bag as needed.

I prefer the small 5 gallon bucket style separators since they are so easy to empty.

I always use hearing protection when running the thickness planer and dust collector.
 
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#9 ·
Agreed on hearing protection for the planer - I always use them myself but for a couple passes on the router table or the jointer (which is the quietest machine I have), the shop vac destroys the Zen of the moment. And Mike, I must be using the planer wrong ... I can easily dump my 20gal cyclone bucket 3 times in a session and I know when it gets full, the chips start coming out of the open exhaust which I direct to another trash can (and always run it outside)
 
#11 ·
The problem with a shop vac for planers is the chips are fairly large and need good airflow to carry them away. That's why I use a real dust collector for my planer. Planers typically need around 500 CFM but shop vacs only pull in the range of 200 to 250 CFM. For sanding, a shop vac is fine but it simply doesn't have enough air flow for planers.

I'd think the 735 blower helps but you are stuck with a 2.5" pipe which kills the flow. You are almost better not using a shop vac with the planer and just making a box or bag to blow the chips into. Planers generally don't make much in the way of small dust particles so they don't need sub micron filtration.
 
#12 ·
Phil,

Points well taken, Mike Stringer has made the same point in the past.

I am not restricted to a 2-1/2 hose. I will be running a 4" from the planer to the DD. I will be limited to a 2-1/2 from the DD to the SV. However, the hose will be clear, so, blockages will be readily evident. Plus, my understanding is that the 735 has a wicked blower.

I don't have any experience with the 735 yet, so I don't quite know what the actual conditions will be.

The unit won't just be used on the Dewalt; it will also do duty with my jointer, router table, drill press, miter saw, et. al.

Everyone, please don't get hung up on me doing this for my 735. The intent is to build a small general purpose cyclone that anyone can use on anything in a small shop. Not everyone can have a full sized DC.

So, the exercise to to design and build a functional small cyclone that anyone can do and use in their shop.

Bill
 
#13 ·
Mark, I have no idea where you got the impression you were doing anything wrong. I mentioned the way I choose to work and my preference for the 5 gallon separators. This is why they make two kinds of ice cream... to each his own. I had a 55 gallon cardboard drum with a dust collector on it. It was a pain to empty so I sold it.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Bill thanks for getting this discussion going,as most of our members that need small units,don't have room for a full sized one like I have, but need something that works.
The other discussion got sidetracked on static E,and beat that horse to a pulp. When it should have covered air flows ,duct sizes, cyclones,filters, fan sizes and motor hp.etc.
Herb
 
#17 ·
Herb,

No matter what you do, it'll get side tracked. But, that's OK. If someone has a question we should be trying to answer it. You can always guide the conversation back to the focus.

The main focus is to come up with a viable plan, implement it, and show some folks, who may hesitate to tackle a project like this, that they can succeed.

Bill
 
#18 ·
Let me see if I can be a little more constructive than my previous posts. Here’s some content to discuss design decisions and perhaps what not to do. This is my current setup (currently attached to a gated line for the RT and Jointer). I should also mention I run a PowerJet air filtration unit hung from the ceiling which takes care of all of the fine stuff rather quickly so I’m not too concerned with the 2.5” shop-vac vs. 4” DC disadvantages. I didn’t see a need to go any larger on ducting than the 2.5” diameter – the shop vac is the limiting device. The cyclone is based on the Thien separator (J. Phil Thien's Cyclone Separator Lid w/ the Thien Cyclone Separator Baffle).

If I were to attempt to sound proof this setup, the frame would need to be rebuilt to about 2.5’ square to support any panels. I would only worry about boxing in the top half for the vacuum. In fact I might go with an open concept (to least restrict airflow) and put some sort of sound absorbing panels opposite the motor (top) and vacuum (back) exhaust. I’ve read that the $12 noise cancelling baffle device for the vacuum exhaust by this vendor is not really all that effective. I thought about using rigid insulation on panels for sound deadening, but some research seemed to indicate that it wouldn’t provide that much noise cancelling. The real material needed seamed pricey. Perhaps the answer is an electronic active noise cancelling device – it should work well, the noise is constant.

Pros:
1. The gray separator bucket is large but sometimes I wish it were larger for the planer. It fills quickly with that type of job.
2. The bottom / open location for the separator seems ideal, it slides out easily for dumping. Once the bucket is out of the rack, the plywood lid lifts off with the lines intact.
3. Access to the shop vac connection is easy. This turns out to be critical. I can just drop that line into another bucket or on the ground for use with the planer. As mentioned earlier, the shop vac can’t keep up with the DW735 blower. This is not real dust problem; the separator captures a lot more than you would think.
4. As configured, I can attach vacuum accessories to the separator input hose and use it for all my general purpose cleaning. I hardly ever check the vacuum filter or dump the vac.
5. As a bonus, the recently upgraded shop vac provided me with all the proper hose and connections to use with the router (finally).

Cons:
1. The plastic bucket (unmodified) is was not rigid enough to resist the vacuum. It would deform. Go with metal.
2. All the plastic tends to accumulate enough static to be a fine dust magnet. I haven’t tried any anti-static spray or grounding techniques yet.
3. It’s a source of unwanted noise – I don’t run it continuously as someone might a DC system.
4. It’s messy looking but functional – the frame in the back doubles as a pull handle
5. The plastic casters that I used are too small – go one size larger, it will roll better. No locking feature to these – it hasn’t been a problem.
6. The frame was designed for minimum profile. I would have to rebuild it if I wanted to box in the shop-vac
 

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#25 ·
Good info, thanks, Mark.

So, do I understand that you are running a DW735 with a 2.5" hose with no problems?

Bill
 
#19 ·
Thanks Bill ! My question was sort of caused by walking around home depot for an hour today trying to figure out how to hook all this stuff up. It seemed like there was always something I couldn't get so as to make everything work together. I had checked Amazon. didn't come up with anything. I did see a place that had 2 1/2" clear pvc pipes, but there were something like $73 for 8'. I really don't want to spend that much for something like that. lol. Anyway I am going to wind up with 2 dust collection systems. The shop vac for the smaller tools, and a 1.5 HP Jet 1100 cfm for the larger stuff. Just working on the shop vac powered one first, then I will tackle the larger one. So...again, thanks for the help :)

Gary
 
#22 ·
No, I haven't found the need to. Surprisingly alot of stuff drops out in the separator particularly if used with wood chips / sawdust and any of the power tool hookups. I may check the vacuum filter every 5 empties of the separator - a little more frequently if I'm just vacuuming dust off the floor.
 
#27 ·
Woodie,

Great info and a lot of it there. I have read through it in the past and although it has some very good info, it is geared towards the larger DC's moving higher volume's of air.

For a larger stationary DC system it is a must read. Especially, the sizing of the duct work.

If anyone hasn't at least glanced at this info, take a few minutes to at least skim the info. It will not be wasted time.

Bill
 
#23 · (Edited)
A couple of points and my approach.

Bernouli's law does say that you should see a speedup. However, you aren't starting with much CFM to begin with and, more importantly, resistive losses in the small pipe will drop your CFM a lot.

You are only going to get so much flow through a 2.5" pipe no matter what you start with.

If you follow the bernouli implications, pulling 250 cfm though a cyclone separator and then pulling that through a 4" pipe means you are losing CFM like mad.

Here's my sanding dust extractor cart. Uses a small shop vac, hepa filter, thien baffle based separator and an iVac switch. The vac is elevated to minimize piping losses. Works pretty well. I'm quite sure that my set up would not work very well for a TS, jointer or planer. Might work for a band saw. It is mediocre on my 10" SCMS but it does work great for anything that makes fairly fine dust - RO Sanders, table top sanders, routers and others.

By the way, I thought about punching a hole in the bottom of the shop vac and just sitting it on the out-take hole of the separator - would make a very compact unit.
 

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#24 · (Edited)
I build my own Dust Deputy cart inspired by all of the YouTube video I watched. I won't take credit for the ideas or the concepts but I did put my own design into it. That's the fun of it.

I don't have a planer but I did build an enclosure (looks like a cube) for an older Ridgid vac. I use sound deadening material I bought from Home Depot, 4' x 8' sheets
that I cut down to fit inside the enclosure. These sheets were about $10.00 each and I only need a couple.
The vac sits on a shelf elevated a couple inches above the bottom and used a 1" hole saw and made several holes in the shelf for the exhaust to run
under the shelf and out the back. On the back and under the shelf I drilled more holes for the exhaust. A hole for the vacuum intake was also needed, naturally.

My enclosure was made is made of 1/2" MDF and it sits on a furniture dolly I bought from Harbor Freight. Also on that dolly on one end is the 30 gallon blue plastic barrow
for the saw dust and on top of that is the dust deputy. I think I have only 1"7/8" hose coming from my vac so adapting wasn't too big of a deal for me. The 1 1/2" PVC elbows
worked with just a little bit of heat gun heat to soften them up before pushing them on the DD.

The wheels of the dolly tend to want to roll down hill if I get too close to the floor drain so I have to watch out for that because I don't want it crashing into my Goldwing.
I use this system mostly for my table saw and general vacuuming of the garage and with the 10' flexible hose and From the Ridgid shop vac hose kit I also bought my clean up
has become much easier. I no-longer have to put on my hot Dewalt ear muff hearing protection as my vac is much quieter.
What I don't like is the amount of room this unit takes up so I'm really looking forward to next Spring building that garage out back to hold all of this other stuff that's in the way.

I forgot to mention, others commenting about the heat build up of the vacuum, well I don't know if that is happening or not. My old vac has been working well for a while and I haven't notice the exhaust air getting hot so I haven't worried about it. That's why I used an old vac to see if there would be an issue. It always stays in the box.

Good luck and have fun with your build.

Bryan
 
#26 ·
Bryan,

Do you have a photo of the set-up that you can post

Bill?
 
#32 ·
I really like the direction you've taken in this thread Bill, sure hope we can stay on track. I'd be particularly interested in seeing options for building a separator with a Thien baffle. I got tired of cleaning the pleats in my vac filter and put some panty hose over the filter. This helped keep the pleats from clogging, but I still had to frequently knock the fines off of the hose. I recently switched to using paper bags which completely eliminated the mess in having to empty and clean out the vacuum. Going to a two stage system should really help cut down on bag changes.

As far as soundproofing the vac, the guy in the 3rd video had a pretty good approach, great idea using carpet padding at a fraction of the cost of anechoic material. I'm not sure it's worth the effort in my shop. For the relatively small amount of time that I'm actually making sawdust, wearing a pair of shooter's muffs isn't a problem.
 
#34 ·
Jeff,

One of the reasons that I tried to post a variety of approaches was to generate your type of thinking. I didn't want to inject my opinions into the discussion. However, I personally agree that the approach is innovative. Acoustic sound dampening material is ridiculously expensive. The average person has to have cost effective alternatives.

So, I'll ask the group, what have you or what would you use, if you choose to use sound deadening material?

Bill
 
#35 · (Edited)
A point many people do not consider is that anything that gets through the vacuum filter goes through the motor. If you are using a HEPA filter you know how expensive they are so anything you can do to prolong the filter and vacuum motor life is worth while. Filter bags are a good idea; for those using a round canister type filter in a vacuum there are small white filter bags that attach over the canister with a large rubber band. Last I checked the HEPA filter for my Craftsman shop vac was about $50, the HEPA filter for the Festool CT26E is $88 and for my Bosch VAC140A is $120. Anything that can be done to prolong the life of these filters seems like a good idea to me. Many brands sell the filter bags in 5 packs; IE.. the Festool package is $38 for 5 bags. I would rather spend the $7.60 cents per bag which makes clean up super easy than to replace the HEPA filter. Since I almost always use a separator the filter bag life is measured in years. Bosch also offers disposable heavy duty plastic bags for cleaning up concrete chips or drywall dust and they cost about $5 each and are sold in 10 packs. When using these bags it is better to use the standard air filter. Food for thought.
 

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#40 ·
Allen, reducing your shop clean up time is nice but keeping your lungs healthy is even better. All wood dust is a carcinogen, some types of wood are much worse than others. The many tips provided by all the members are worth including in your shop.
 
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#41 ·
Very interesting and valuable discussion. I noted several comments regarding the 'output" of the 735 and its ability to blow lids off canisters etc. which brought to mind a minor incident I experienced in that regard.

All of my tools are connected through a 4' movable hose (ceiling mounted and grounded) to a DELTA 50 - 850 dust collector with a 1 micron bag. Because of space constraints I don't have any type of a cyclone system. The maximum overall run then can be in excess of 30'. I set up the 735 and was busily planing several boards when I noticed the shop seemed abnormally dusty. Seems the main hose connecting to the DELTA had come off and the 735 was blowing chips and dust through 30' of pipe and some 12' back across the shop. Indeed a bit of a mess. :surprise:

So be wary when connecting a 735 to small pipes/hoses and shop vacs.
 
#42 ·
Jon,

Good data, especially, for me when I hook up the 735. It is interesting, that, the 735 is set up to accept a 4" and a 2-1/2" hose, but the real output is the 2-1/2" outlet. If a 735 can blow chips 30-45 feet on its own, through a 4" hose, that is amazing!

So, I can probably expect that a 10' long 4" hose to the cyclone will not be a problem. In addition, the shop vac should have no problem extracting the fines out of the cyclone no matter what the CFM rate of the vac.

Bill
 
#44 ·
Bill:
My DC is a 1 hp Delta attached to my table saw (an older contractor style) but because of the design of the table saw, my DC misses a lot of dust. I built a separator a while ago, based on the popular Thein baffle, and use that to clean up what my DC misses, as well as general cleanup in my basement shop. I don't use any collection on my planer and jointer which sit in the garage - a broom takes care of that but I know that that is not the point of your thread.

I've been dragging my shopvac/separator around for a while and haven't got around to combining the two into one, easily handled cart, so this thread is very timely - thanks for starting the discussion.

I hope you don't mind if I post a couple of pics - they are representative of the basic problem that some others, besides myself, may face.

Vince
 

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#45 ·
I've been dragging my shopvac/separator around for a while and haven't got around to combining the two into one, easily handled cart, so this thread is very timely - thanks for starting the discussion.
Build the cart! I had mine just like yours for a while. Once I built the cart it was like "what was I thinkin?!?". It is so much easier to use.
 
#47 ·
#49 ·
Bill,

I'm really not sure how to get my pictures in a post but I did manage to get them to an album if you'd like to look. I hope this link will work, if not you can view my album.

Router Forums - bryansong's Album: Shop Vac & Dust Deputy

http://www.routerforums.com/picture.php?pictureid=2666&albumid=250&dl=1436583678&thumb=1

Bryan
Bryan,

OUTSTANDING! Nice hose reals, well laid out and portable.

Are the hose reals convenient? Great idea, but I find short lengths tend to un-spool if they are not restrained! Did you incorporate any type of sound deadening into the cabinet? If so, how?

Would you change anything?

Bill
 
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