Joining Boards Together For Door Panel - Router Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-15-2013, 03:57 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Gaia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: United Kingdom
First Name: Peter
Posts: 603
 
Default Joining Boards Together For Door Panel

I'm into wood carving and making doors. To make a large panel for a exterior, interior house door? Joining boards together, any pointers of how wide I have the boards I glue up? Would the way to go be using spline joints to glue the boards together? Alternating grain pattern on the end of each board to reduce any tendency to cup, does this also apply to to quarter sawn timber? Use the pipe clamps, one head on one side, then the next on the opposite to even out any stresses in the wood and further reduce tendency to cup? Clamping cauls?
Any advice much appreciated.

Last edited by Gaia; 01-15-2013 at 04:56 PM.
Gaia is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-16-2013, 07:45 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Country: United States
First Name: Art
Posts: 1,528
 
Default

I would stick with boards about 6" wide and although it is often said to rotate the grain to prevent cupping I have never experienced it. Keep the boards flat by putting a piece of wood over them once they are glued up. It also helps to put some paper under the board in case there is glue squeeze out. Have your clamps set before doing the gluing and don't over tighten them. If you can put glued up panel through a planer that would be the best otherwise just sand them smooth. Splines would be fine but not necessary as long as your edges are straight and smooth.
mgmine is offline  
post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-16-2013, 08:06 PM
Registered User
 
Phil P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United Kingdom
First Name: Phil
Posts: 2,117
 
Default

Hi Peter

For a door panel I'd say get the hearts all on the same side; two reasons - firstly if it moves in service a panel with a single bowed surface looks less disconcerting than a washboard surface if hearts/backs are alternated, secondly if the timber is crown or flitch cut (and many pieces are) then getting a visual match with two pieces should be much easier (not to mention consistent stain/finish absorbtion rates and evenness of colouring when finishing). Where quarter sawn is used on doors it is generally only available in oak - and even that is pricey. Sometimes used on frames rather than panels for stability

If you use clamps then all same way round but with a piece od something like 2 x 1in softwood cleat up each edge to even out the pressure (avoids crushing the fibres and removes metal to timber contact - not good with timbers like oak which can blacken). One tip about clamps - coat before use with Johnsons wax furniture polish or similar, especially the threads - makes cleaning-up drips afterwards much, much easier. A hardboard board waxed in the same way can be placed on the bench to protect it, too, although Visqueen (builders DPM polythene) dioes just as well. Cauls shouldn't be necessary, just don't go mad applying too much pressure.

This sort of task was often done in the past with a plain jointed board edge and a rubbed joint with just a couple of joiner's dogs (see below) knocked into either end of the boards. If you do use a water based glue such as PVA and loose tongues (spline joints) leave the boards an extra day or two to dry out as the moisture trapped in the joint can cause slight swelling and may take a couple of days to dissipate. Saves having to sort out hollow joints caused by planing-up prematurely whilst the joint is still slightly swollen


Above: Joiners dogs

BTW cramped joints were traditionally shot slightly hollow (0.3 to 0.5mm or so) whilst dogged joints were worked with one side slightly crowned in the middle of the joint to give a slight gap at each end (again 0.3 to 0.5mm at each end). Light cramping then pulls the joints up nicely

Regards

Phil

"Unfortunately there is lots of bad information online; some of it is really scary. It's probably not intentional, but I've seen some content that sets up the illusion that you can do whatever you want and get away with it" - Norm Abram in an interview with Jefferson Kolle
Phil P is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-18-2013, 02:46 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Gaia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: United Kingdom
First Name: Peter
Posts: 603
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil P View Post
Hi Peter

For a door panel I'd say get the hearts all on the same side; two reasons - firstly if it moves in service a panel with a single bowed surface looks less disconcerting than a washboard surface if hearts/backs are alternated, secondly if the timber is crown or flitch cut (and many pieces are) then getting a visual match with two pieces should be much easier (not to mention consistent stain/finish absorbtion rates and evenness of colouring when finishing). Where quarter sawn is used on doors it is generally only available in oak - and even that is pricey. Sometimes used on frames rather than panels for stability

If you use clamps then all same way round but with a piece od something like 2 x 1in softwood cleat up each edge to even out the pressure (avoids crushing the fibres and removes metal to timber contact - not good with timbers like oak which can blacken). One tip about clamps - coat before use with Johnsons wax furniture polish or similar, especially the threads - makes cleaning-up drips afterwards much, much easier. A hardboard board waxed in the same way can be placed on the bench to protect it, too, although Visqueen (builders DPM polythene) dioes just as well. Cauls shouldn't be necessary, just don't go mad applying too much pressure.

This sort of task was often done in the past with a plain jointed board edge and a rubbed joint with just a couple of joiner's dogs (see below) knocked into either end of the boards. If you do use a water based glue such as PVA and loose tongues (spline joints) leave the boards an extra day or two to dry out as the moisture trapped in the joint can cause slight swelling and may take a couple of days to dissipate. Saves having to sort out hollow joints caused by planing-up prematurely whilst the joint is still slightly swollen


Above: Joiners dogs

BTW cramped joints were traditionally shot slightly hollow (0.3 to 0.5mm or so) whilst dogged joints were worked with one side slightly crowned in the middle of the joint to give a slight gap at each end (again 0.3 to 0.5mm at each end). Light cramping then pulls the joints up nicely

Regards

Phil
OK thanks as ever for a knowledgable reply. If I use spline panel joints what size should I make these? The size of the slot and stub themselves in relation to the thickness of the panel boards themselves? Would I use cauls on spline jointed boards?
Cheers.
Gaia is offline  
post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-18-2013, 02:49 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Gaia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: United Kingdom
First Name: Peter
Posts: 603
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgmine View Post
I would stick with boards about 6" wide and although it is often said to rotate the grain to prevent cupping I have never experienced it. Keep the boards flat by putting a piece of wood over them once they are glued up. It also helps to put some paper under the board in case there is glue squeeze out. Have your clamps set before doing the gluing and don't over tighten them. If you can put glued up panel through a planer that would be the best otherwise just sand them smooth. Splines would be fine but not necessary as long as your edges are straight and smooth.
OK thanks.
Gaia is offline  
post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-19-2013, 12:41 PM
Registered User
 
Phil P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United Kingdom
First Name: Phil
Posts: 2,117
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaia View Post
If I use spline panel joints what size should I make these? The size of the slot and stub themselves in relation to the thickness of the panel boards themselves? Would I use cauls on spline jointed boards?
Hi Peter

Splines are generally made from standard available stuff and are generally proportioned similar to a mortise and tenon joint (a loose tongue is after all just another form of tenon). That means about 1/3 of thickness. So if your panels are 25mm/1in you are looking at 8mm plywood, although 6mm (1/4in) or 9.5mm (3/8in) would also do. Just make sure that the splines are a snug fit and not rattling around (if needs be rout the grooves tight and sand the splines to fit) . In terms of depth the splines need only be 12 to 20mm wide overall with 1 to 2mm extra width in the slots - their purpose is to keep the joint straight whilst the glue sets - they don't add to the strength of the joint and can detract from it (especially if overly wide) which is why a lot of traditional work uses a rubbed plain butt joint. If your edges are dead square (which they need to be be to joint them properly) cauls shouldn't be necessary provided you don't overcramp. The only time you should need cauls is on thin timber, 12mm (1/2in) or less, but you'd never really use splines on anything so thin

Please note that I don't use the word "stub" - it is not relevant in this context (a stub tenon is something completely different).

Regards

Phil

"Unfortunately there is lots of bad information online; some of it is really scary. It's probably not intentional, but I've seen some content that sets up the illusion that you can do whatever you want and get away with it" - Norm Abram in an interview with Jefferson Kolle
Phil P is offline  
post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-19-2013, 05:47 PM
Forum Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: United States
First Name: Bj
Posts: 23,786
       
Default

Hi

Not to sure why you want put a spline in a panel doors a butt joint will work well the norm..the door frame is doing most of the work for you.

===




"It's fine to disagree with other members as long as you respect their opinions"

Marc Sommerfeld Tools ,Videos
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT-n...RWaEpMA/videos

Find all threads started by bobj3
http://www.routerforums.com/search.php?searchid=944097


bobj3 is offline  
post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-20-2013, 03:09 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Gaia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: United Kingdom
First Name: Peter
Posts: 603
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobj3 View Post
Hi

Not to sure why you want put a spline in a panel doors a butt joint will work well the norm..the door frame is doing most of the work for you.

===
Hi Bob,
The slot in the frame allowing for expansion and contraction of the panel. Could the expansion slot cause problems with a butt jointed panel?
Gaia is offline  
post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-20-2013, 03:28 PM
Forum Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: United States
First Name: Bj
Posts: 23,786
       
Default

with the glue we have now days it will hold a butt joint easy but the strips is backup way to hold it in place as well..

200ct. Panalign Strips-Sommerfeld's Tools For Wood

Panalign Strips-Sommerfeld's Tools For Wood


====

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaia View Post
Hi Bob,
The slot in the frame allowing for expansion and contraction of the panel. Could the expansion slot cause problems with a butt jointed panel?



"It's fine to disagree with other members as long as you respect their opinions"

Marc Sommerfeld Tools ,Videos
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT-n...RWaEpMA/videos

Find all threads started by bobj3
http://www.routerforums.com/search.php?searchid=944097



Last edited by bobj3; 01-20-2013 at 03:44 PM.
bobj3 is offline  
post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-20-2013, 03:35 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Gaia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: United Kingdom
First Name: Peter
Posts: 603
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil P View Post
Hi Peter

Splines are generally made from standard available stuff and are generally proportioned similar to a mortise and tenon joint (a loose tongue is after all just another form of tenon). That means about 1/3 of thickness. So if your panels are 25mm/1in you are looking at 8mm plywood, although 6mm (1/4in) or 9.5mm (3/8in) would also do. Just make sure that the splines are a snug fit and not rattling around (if needs be rout the grooves tight and sand the splines to fit) . In terms of depth the splines need only be 12 to 20mm wide overall with 1 to 2mm extra width in the slots - their purpose is to keep the joint straight whilst the glue sets - they don't add to the strength of the joint and can detract from it (especially if overly wide) which is why a lot of traditional work uses a rubbed plain butt joint. If your edges are dead square (which they need to be be to joint them properly) cauls shouldn't be necessary provided you don't overcramp. The only time you should need cauls is on thin timber, 12mm (1/2in) or less, but you'd never really use splines on anything so thin

Please note that I don't use the word "stub" - it is not relevant in this context (a stub tenon is something completely different).

Regards

Phil
Whats your view on the following?

" The better the glue penetrates into the pores of the wood, the stronger the joint will be. "

" Broad surfaces of close-grained hardwood having a shiny surface are usually carefully roughened with a fine toothing plane blade previous to glueing. "
Cheers.
Gaia is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Router Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Alabama Corn Hole Boards grbrico Show N' Tell 6 07-04-2012 09:19 PM
Planing with a Router Gilbear Portable Routing 51 05-17-2012 04:40 PM
First Inlay Attempt/ cutting boards bcfunburst Show N' Tell 3 01-21-2012 09:57 PM
First Cutting Boards Soapdish Show N' Tell 3 02-03-2010 10:35 AM
Jointing long boards Jtomwoods Table-mounted Routing 8 05-25-2008 09:05 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome