Table Routing vs Shaper with collets - Router Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-25-2009, 12:40 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Country: United States
First Name: "BILL"
Posts: 110
 
Question Table Routing vs Shaper with collets

Ok I know there are no "stupid questions" only "stupid " answers, but this may fall into both categories! I know that for those folks who want to primarily do table routing, that by the time you buy the router $200-$350, buy the table $200- $500, buy the table stand $200- $300, you may have invested around $1000 bucks. Been there done that.
My "stupid" question is: Why not just get the Grizzly 3hp shaper at $900 -950 and a collet for router bits at $50? The hidden advantage is shhhh...it's also a shaper....! So, you are already down that road for free! I bought mine a while back and it comes with the fence, table, guard, miter gage, runs on 220v, and comes with 1/2" 3/4" and 1" arbors and it will never be underpowered! The main objection I can see is that the shapers maximum speed is 10,000 RPM. This may not work well for small diameter cutters. I don't know? But it will be Ok for the 3" ones. Ok, I know you can't hand hold it, but if it's holding hands you like, there are web sites for that stuff too. This will probably open a new can of worms, but it hit me like a shot last night, and I thought I'd throw it out there/here. I haven't used mine in this manner, yet so I may be in for some surprises!
Added to this post later today, to clarify the question:
I'm looking for a discussion on the merits of the shaper using router bits in the optional collet vs the same operations on the router table with all other factors, especially cost being the same. High end router tableset up vs medium cost shaper from Grizzly, same cost approximately. Has anyone got experience using a shaper in this manner? Please advise. Thanks. Bill

Last edited by woodnthings; 02-25-2009 at 09:35 PM.
woodnthings is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-25-2009, 01:58 PM
Registered User
 
Ghidrah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Country: United States
First Name: Ronald
Posts: 1,466
 
Default

Regarding table routing, outside of the initial cost of a router when bought in 97 just about $300.00, (a 7539) I built my cabinet and table, (using AWs plans) for maybe $75.00 and that was more than fine for over 11 yrs. I've spent way more on bits.
Many woodworkers don't apply all the bells and whistles, (cabinets, vac attachments, fence tracks, Lifts, motorized lifts, kill switches). The ones that do make the applications don't always go into it hog-wild, more likely a gradual change over the years.
After a decade I recently bought the Bench Dog pro-lift, switched to a T track on the table, added a T track to the fence and modified the vac chamber to be more efficient.

As for shapers my guess is floor space, the initial cost of a decent shaper, the cost of the cutters and the need for a unit of this capacity. If I were a production shop I'd certainly have a solid shaper.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Amer WdWrkr1.jpg
Views:	57
Size:	132.0 KB
ID:	20498  


Never bite the hand that looks dirty!
The more you know the more you're worth
Ghidrah is offline  
post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-25-2009, 02:05 PM
Forum Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: United States
First Name: Bj
Posts: 23,786
       
Default

Hi Bill

We need to talk .. you can put a router table up and running for about 250.oo maybe a bit less ,unlike a shaper,,, that must be made by a Mfg.
,most are cast iron and steel..

The shaper is a bit limited in what it can do, unlike the router table..not to say anything about the cost of the cutters...but I will say they do have a place in the wood shop,,,I had one along time ago but I moved up to the router table...
It's true you can use some router bits in the shaper but it's bit hairy to use it that way..

but this is just my 2 cents


======





Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
Ok I know there are no "stupid questions" only "stupid " answers, but this may fall into both categories! I know that for those folks who want to primarily do table routing, that by the time you buy the router $200-$350, buy the table $200- $500, buy the table stand $200- $300, you may have invested around $1000 bucks. Been there done that.
My "stupid" question is: Why not just get the Grizzly 3hp shaper at $900 -950 and a collet for router bits at $50? The hidden advantage is shhhh...it's also a shaper....! So, you are already down that road for free! I bought mine a while back and it comes with the fence, table, guard, miter gage, runs on 220v, and comes with 1/2" 3/4" and 1" arbors and it will never be underpowered! The main objection I can see is that the shapers maximum speed is 10,000 RPM. This may not work well for small diameter cutters. I don't know? But it will be Ok for the 3' ones. Ok, I know you can't hand hold it, but if it's holding hands you like, there are web sites for that stuff too. This will probably open a new can of worms, but it hit me like a shot last night, and I thought I'd throw it out there/here. I haven't used mine in this manner, yet so I may be in for some surprises! Sincerly,Bill



"It's fine to disagree with other members as long as you respect their opinions"

Marc Sommerfeld Tools ,Videos
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT-n...RWaEpMA/videos

Find all threads started by bobj3
http://www.routerforums.com/search.php?searchid=944097


bobj3 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-25-2009, 05:20 PM
Registered User
 
allthunbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Country: Canada
First Name: Ron
Posts: 2,881
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
Why not just get the Grizzly 3hp shaper...
Hi Bill: Hmmmm, my table mounted Hitachi cost me $30 and that included a bunch of bits. My 4th router table cost me about $10 but my 5th, 6th, and 7th will be a bit more. My 5th will be a reworking of my existing one. The 6th will be for a duplicator and the 7th will be for 3' skis.

If a router were only fixed to a table then perhaps your observation would garner much support and the router would have died long ago. My observation would be that the shaper is a fixed-use tool whereas the router is far more versatile, the table being only one use.

Allthunbs
allthunbs is offline  
post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-25-2009, 06:06 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Country: United States
First Name: "BILL"
Posts: 110
 
Question

Yes Guys, I know we can all put together all kinds of combinations of $50 routers and homemade tables and fences, I understand that. My question was more about if the budget is $1000 what makes a better purchase? ...a fully outfitted router, table, (I didn't mention a lift at $250 or so) under cabinet. switch etc. or..all the above included in the shaper for the same money. Are there reasons other than the the portability issue which favors one over the other, that I can't see from over here? I raise this because we get so many questions from folks starting out about which is the best router? which is best table? Collets? Guide bushings? etc. It seems to me what we lost in portability, (a factor, but how many of us take our table routers out of the table?) we gained in the ability to use the enormous variety of shaper cutters, some of which are reversible from top to bottom, and all the router bits as well. It's just food for thought and discussion. I really don't expect that there is one absolute answer here. I also raise the issue because it may be helpful for someone starting out, to budget their future purchases. Thanks for your interest everyone, Bill

Added to original post at a later time and here as well:
I'm looking for a discussion on the merits of the shaper using router bits in the optional collet vs the same operations on the router table with all other factors, especially cost being the same. High end router tableset up vs medium cost shaper from Grizzly, same cost approximately. Has anyone got experience using a shaper in this manner? Please advise. Thanks. Bill

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by woodnthings; 02-25-2009 at 09:33 PM.
woodnthings is offline  
post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-25-2009, 06:27 PM
Registered User
 
allthunbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Country: Canada
First Name: Ron
Posts: 2,881
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
I also raise the issue because it may be helpful for someone starting out, to budget their future purchases. Thanks for your interest everyone, Bill
I wrote and posted a series of notes on routers that answered many questions for beginners and allowed them the information they needed to make informed decisions. I was forced to withdraw it.

Allthunbs
allthunbs is offline  
post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-25-2009, 06:35 PM
Forum Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: United States
First Name: Bj
Posts: 23,786
       
Default

Hi Bill

Router table setup
Lets add one up just for kicks

router combo with built in lift 100.oo
router mounting plate 20.oo
brass guide set 20.oo (opt. item)
plywood to make the cabinet 30.oo
mdf for the top of the cabinet 15.oo
mdf for the fence , 10.oo
vac.pickup pickup tube 5.oo
bolts and nuts and screws 5.oo

that's 215.oo dollars . that's with a plunge router and a standard router in one combo kit.

I think that's why may go the router table way and not with the shaper.
add a 100.oo for a 3HP router , but that's a bit over kill for most router tables.

========







Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
Yes Guys, I know we can all put together all kinds of combinations of $50 routers and homemade tables and fences, I understand that. My question was more about if the budget is $1000 what makes a better purchase? ...a fully outfitted router, table, (I didn't mention a lift at $250 or so) under cabinet. switch etc. or..all the above included in the shaper for the same money. Are there reasons other than the the portability issue which favors one over the other, that I can't see from over here? I raise this because we get so many questions from folks starting out about which is the best router? which is best table? Collets? Guide bushings? etc. It seems to me what we lost in portability, (a factor, but how many of us take our table routers out of the table?) we gained in the ability to use the enormous variety of shaper cutters, some of which are reversible from top to bottom, and all the router bits as well. It's just food for thought and discussion. I really don't expect that there is one absolute answer here. I also raise the issue because it may be helpful for someone starting out, to budget their future purchases. Thanks for your interest everyone, Bill



"It's fine to disagree with other members as long as you respect their opinions"

Marc Sommerfeld Tools ,Videos
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT-n...RWaEpMA/videos

Find all threads started by bobj3
http://www.routerforums.com/search.php?searchid=944097


bobj3 is offline  
post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-25-2009, 11:53 PM
Registered User
 
Ghidrah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Country: United States
First Name: Ronald
Posts: 1,466
 
Default

WoodNThings,
Until late last fall, the plunge came out of the table all the time. I used the PC 694 on decking, (composite, Fir, Mahogany, SYP) and the PC 7539 for caps, railing and balusters. I was never willing to modify the 7539, (remove springs to make table set-ups easier) because I used it so much on the job site.

I think a molder is much more versatile than a shaper regarding the variety of profiles and possible sizes. However the shaper excels certain jobs like production work, door making, jointing, and some profiling.

Never bite the hand that looks dirty!
The more you know the more you're worth
Ghidrah is offline  
post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-26-2009, 11:36 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Country: United States
First Name: mike
Posts: 19
 
Default

Hey Bob,
I'm thinking that I'm sorta typical of a new woodworker, in that I bought a PC 693 kit and a Rockler table top. Meaning that I have more than 215 dollars in the setup at this point. I actually started my adventure with a HF plunge router on a plate and tabletop I made myself ($50) but, it tried to kill me, so I haven't used it much lately.
After a bit more routing seat time I can see that, I may actually be able to make a setup that suits it's intented use for the bargain budget money of which you speak but, for now it ain't happenin'. Either way, I agree that a shaper, is not a hobbiest tool,( at a hobby price) but a machine you purchase when money making and speed are the goals.
tmiller is offline  
post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-09-2009, 05:34 AM
Registered User
 
allthunbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Country: Canada
First Name: Ron
Posts: 2,881
 
Default

I watched a recent episode of "this old house" where a post and beam organization was automated. I got to thinking about all of the equipment and how and why it was needed. I figure the only answer is repeatability. All of the operations are repeats of the one that came before. The same could be said of shapers and molders. But, when properly setup, the router can perform the same tasks with the only variable being the operator. Rather than a computer, you've got a man or woman.

I take a look at shaper cutters and molder setups and router bits and for one-off operations, the router can't be beat. Even small scale production is more cost-effective with router(s). The dividing line is particleboard. You are no longer working with wood and you're into mass production to cover your costs so, there you'll need the big stuff. I can see no use in a wood shop for a shaper when there are routers and imagination combined. I like the router for versatility and the ease that allows me a variety of methods of accomplishing a given task.

I go back and look at the old planes and there's still stuff where even using a router I can't duplicate. I'm learning how to use scrapers and you can't get that finish with sand paper or router bits. No matter how effective the new, there are still reasons to learn the old ways.

Allthunbs
allthunbs is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Router Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











  LinkBacks (?)
LinkBack to this Thread: https://www.routerforums.com/table-mounted-routing/12651-table-routing-vs-shaper-collets.html
Posted By For Type Date
Shaper vs really good router - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum This thread Refback 05-29-2009 08:49 PM

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Router table or Plunge routing template tom Guide Bushings and Templates 15 04-14-2009 03:45 AM
When does a router table become a shaper Bogydave Table-mounted Routing 22 12-21-2008 01:38 PM
CMT Industrio Routing Table Frankg Table-mounted Routing 12 11-21-2008 05:05 PM
router table or shaper? flyboy8224 Starting Off 6 12-03-2007 02:39 AM
From Table Routing To A Shaper cabinetman Table-mounted Routing 6 06-13-2007 08:21 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome