Welcome to the forum, Tony.
Between Shopsabre 23 or Camaster's Stinger II
Hello,
Advice would be sincerely appreciated. I am making parts that resemble guitar bodies for experimental musical instruments, using hardwood that is approximately 1.75" thick, 12" wide x 32 length". I'm not doing high volume production, just prototypes and maybe one complete instrument a week.
I made the mistake of buying a Shark HD520, quickly realizing it was not strong enough for that kind of cutting. The Shark might be great for making/carving signs, plaques and crafts, but it is not intended for cutting thick hardwood unless you really go extremely slow and easy.
It was suggested by Shark tech support that I try cutting using 1/16" per pass on a 1.5" piece of pine, which is way too slow for me, especially when cutting soft wood. Even at that rate the cutter squealed and shuttered, and the whole machine vibrated at times. I tried 10 ipm at 12,000 rpm, 15 ipm at 18,000, and also much slower feeds/speeds all with the same results, stutter, vibration and squealing. (Using Amana bits, particularly, 1/4" straight bit and 1/4" downcut spiral for profile cutting), neither made any difference.
So now looking at a Shopsabre 23 and Camaster Stinger II. I am not going to cut things larger than 2'x3', but do need something that will cut through hardwood that is 1.75" thick quick and easy.
The Shopsabre leaves a lot of tech info out of their description on their website, such as what kind of motors (nema 23, 34 or servo) are used for moving x & y? I know the z axis uses a servo motor, which I like. But this important info only came from watching their video starring "Mr. Router". And even Mr. Router didn't mention anything about the specifics of the x&y motors or ball screw configuration.
Do they (ShopSabre) use one or two ball screws for the y axis?
What are the torque ratings of their axis's motors?
From what I understand a 2 ball-screw/2 stepper motor design (one on each side) used for y axis is better?
The Stinger II uses all servo motors on all axis's, which I believe gives you increased torque? And the motors use a "closed loop" system (which improves accuracy?). But they also don't mention (or I didn't see it), whether they use a one or two ball screw/motor system for the y axis.
I e-mailed Shopsabre asking about the motors used for the x&y axis's, but just got a standard sales reply, no additional tech info, and no info about the x&y motors.
In my humble opinion, as a beginner, I believe these companies should state what the torque rating of their stepper motors are and whether they are nema 23, 34 or servo, and whether they use a single ball screw/motor in the bottom center of their machines, or two ball screw/motors situated on each side of their machines for the Y Axis.
We also always know what the horsepower of spindles and router are, but never their torque. Isn't torque a more important criterion than HP?
Does anyone else here cut guitar bodies or hardwoods in similar dimensions?
Sincere thanks for any insight or advice, very much appreciated. (Sorry if this got a little "ranty", just had some strong coffee...)
TonyAme
Advice would be sincerely appreciated. I am making parts that resemble guitar bodies for experimental musical instruments, using hardwood that is approximately 1.75" thick, 12" wide x 32 length". I'm not doing high volume production, just prototypes and maybe one complete instrument a week.
I made the mistake of buying a Shark HD520, quickly realizing it was not strong enough for that kind of cutting. The Shark might be great for making/carving signs, plaques and crafts, but it is not intended for cutting thick hardwood unless you really go extremely slow and easy.
It was suggested by Shark tech support that I try cutting using 1/16" per pass on a 1.5" piece of pine, which is way too slow for me, especially when cutting soft wood. Even at that rate the cutter squealed and shuttered, and the whole machine vibrated at times. I tried 10 ipm at 12,000 rpm, 15 ipm at 18,000, and also much slower feeds/speeds all with the same results, stutter, vibration and squealing. (Using Amana bits, particularly, 1/4" straight bit and 1/4" downcut spiral for profile cutting), neither made any difference.
So now looking at a Shopsabre 23 and Camaster Stinger II. I am not going to cut things larger than 2'x3', but do need something that will cut through hardwood that is 1.75" thick quick and easy.
The Shopsabre leaves a lot of tech info out of their description on their website, such as what kind of motors (nema 23, 34 or servo) are used for moving x & y? I know the z axis uses a servo motor, which I like. But this important info only came from watching their video starring "Mr. Router". And even Mr. Router didn't mention anything about the specifics of the x&y motors or ball screw configuration.
Do they (ShopSabre) use one or two ball screws for the y axis?
What are the torque ratings of their axis's motors?
From what I understand a 2 ball-screw/2 stepper motor design (one on each side) used for y axis is better?
The Stinger II uses all servo motors on all axis's, which I believe gives you increased torque? And the motors use a "closed loop" system (which improves accuracy?). But they also don't mention (or I didn't see it), whether they use a one or two ball screw/motor system for the y axis.
I e-mailed Shopsabre asking about the motors used for the x&y axis's, but just got a standard sales reply, no additional tech info, and no info about the x&y motors.
In my humble opinion, as a beginner, I believe these companies should state what the torque rating of their stepper motors are and whether they are nema 23, 34 or servo, and whether they use a single ball screw/motor in the bottom center of their machines, or two ball screw/motors situated on each side of their machines for the Y Axis.
We also always know what the horsepower of spindles and router are, but never their torque. Isn't torque a more important criterion than HP?
Does anyone else here cut guitar bodies or hardwoods in similar dimensions?
Sincere thanks for any insight or advice, very much appreciated. (Sorry if this got a little "ranty", just had some strong coffee...)
TonyAme
1 - 20 of 33 Posts
Welcome to the forum! I've made one acoustic and have at least one electric on my bucket list. I built my own CNC router and regularly cut 4/4 to 6/4 Walnut, Maple, Cherry, Purpleheart, etc. at 175ipm, sometimes faster, and depth of cut anywhere from 0.30" to 0.50". You'll be able to cut like that and faster with one of the machines you mentioned. I don't know their specs, though - sorry.Does anyone else here cut guitar bodies or hardwoods in similar dimensions?
Thanks for the reply.Welcome to the forum! I've made one acoustic and have at least one electric on my bucket list. I built my own CNC router and regularly cut 4/4 to 6/4 Walnut, Maple, Cherry, Purpleheart, etc. at 175ipm, sometimes faster, and depth of cut anywhere from 0.30" to 0.50". You'll be able to cut like that and faster with one of the machines you mentioned. I don't know their specs, though - sorry.
Do You use a spindle or router? What is the power of your spindle or router?
What type of motors do you use for the x,y & z? (Nema 24, 34 or servo?)
Do you have a dual ball screw/motor system for the y axis?
Thanks again,
TonyAme
Spindle, 3kW, water cooledDo You use a spindle or router? What is the power of your spindle or router?
What type of motors do you use for the x,y & z? (Nema 24, 34 or servo?)
Do you have a dual ball screw/motor system for the y axis?
NEMA 34 steppers (4 total), 672 in. lb. torque (I think)
Dual motors on Y axis, single motor on X axis, both rack and pinion, ball screw on Z axis
You can read about it here in my build thread - 2nd Build (first) - CNC Router
Thanks. Size and torque of the motors, a spindle over router and dual motors on the y axis seem to make the difference. (After rigidity of the whole machine).Spindle, 3kW, water cooled
NEMA 34 steppers (4 total), 672 in. lb. torque (I think)
Dual motors on Y axis, single motor on X axis, both rack and pinion, ball screw on Z axis
You can read about it here in my build thread - 2nd Build (first) - CNC Router
Thanks again.
They do NOT use a servo for the Z axis. The pictures on their website clearly show a stepper motor. And since they mention "Micro Step drive system", I'm pretty sure all axes are using steppers.The Shopsabre leaves a lot of tech info out of their description on their website, such as what kind of motors (nema 23, 34 or servo) are used for moving x & y? I know the z axis uses a servo motor, which I like.
And it looks like one motor drives the gantry. It wouldn't make sense to use two under the table so close together.
Not necessarily. And it doesn't really mater, as long as the machine does what it claims to do.The Stinger II uses all servo motors on all axis's, which I believe gives you increased torque?
No, open loop is just as accurate as closed loop.And the motors use a "closed loop" system (which improves accuracy?)
Looks like they use a dual drive rack and pinion system.But they also don't mention (or I didn't see it), whether they use a one or two ball screw/motor system for the y axis.
In their defense, I'd say that it shouldn't matter, as long as the machines can do what they claim. These are much different machines then entry level hobby machines like a Shark, or, tbh, anything else costing less than $10k.In my humble opinion, as a beginner, I believe these companies should state what the torque rating of their stepper motors are and whether they are nema 23, 34 or servo, and whether they use a single ball screw/motor in the bottom center of their machines, or two ball screw/motors situated on each side of their machines for the Y Axis.
And torque rating with steppers can be very misleading, as they are rated at holding torque, when they are not spinning. I've seen smaller motors easily outperform much larger steppers with 3x the torque rating.
Single or dual drive shouldn't really matter, as long as the machine is designed properly. The two sides of the Shopsabre gantry are tied together under the table, making for a very rigid system.
To me, these two machines are similar, but also quite different. And the Camaster looks to be a lot more money, but is also a little larger.
Camaster has a very active user community, and their users are very brand loyal. I don't see nearly as many Shopsabre users, but the ones I have seen seem to also be very happy with their machines.
Thanks very much for all this info, appreciate it very much.They do NOT use a servo for the Z axis. The pictures on their website clearly show a stepper motor. And since they mention "Micro Step drive system", I'm pretty sure all axes are using steppers.
And it looks like one motor drives the gantry. It wouldn't make sense to use two under the table so close together.
Not necessarily. And it doesn't really mater, as long as the machine does what it claims to do.
No, open loop is just as accurate as closed loop.
Looks like they use a dual drive rack and pinion system.
In their defense, I'd say that it shouldn't matter, as long as the machines can do what they claim. These are much different machines then entry level hobby machines like a Shark, or, tbh, anything else costing less than $10k.
And torque rating with steppers can be very misleading, as they are rated at holding torque, when they are not spinning. I've seen smaller motors easily outperform much larger steppers with 3x the torque rating.
Single or dual drive shouldn't really matter, as long as the machine is designed properly. The two sides of the Shopsabre gantry are tied together under the table, making for a very rigid system.
To me, these two machines are similar, but also quite different. And the Camaster looks to be a lot more money, but is also a little larger.
Camaster has a very active user community, and their users are very brand loyal. I don't see nearly as many Shopsabre users, but the ones I have seen seem to also be very happy with their machines.
TonyAme
Not sure what you're doing wrong, but I've got an HD520 (3HP water cooled spindle) and easily cut at 100 IPM at a .125 depth with a .25 Dia. bit, and no problems. I've also go a friend that always runs his machine at 170 IPM at .125 depth while cutting 1.75" material for 3D models. I also sell the Shark and always run at 100 IPM.Hello,
Advice would be sincerely appreciated. I am making parts that resemble guitar bodies for experimental musical instruments, using hardwood that is approximately 1.75" thick, 12" wide x 32 length". I'm not doing high volume production, just prototypes and maybe one complete instrument a week.
I made the mistake of buying a Shark HD520, quickly realizing it was not strong enough for that kind of cutting. The Shark might be great for making/carving signs, plaques and crafts, but it is not intended for cutting thick hardwood unless you really go extremely slow and easy.
It was suggested by Shark tech support that I try cutting using 1/16" per pass on a 1.5" piece of pine, which is way too slow for me, especially when cutting soft wood. Even at that rate the cutter squealed and shuttered, and the whole machine vibrated at times. I tried 10 ipm at 12,000 rpm, 15 ipm at 18,000, and also much slower feeds/speeds all with the same results, stutter, vibration and squealing. (Using Amana bits, particularly, 1/4" straight bit and 1/4" downcut spiral for profile cutting), neither made any difference.
So now looking at a Shopsabre 23 and Camaster Stinger II. I am not going to cut things larger than 2'x3', but do need something that will cut through hardwood that is 1.75" thick quick and easy.
The Shopsabre leaves a lot of tech info out of their description on their website, such as what kind of motors (nema 23, 34 or servo) are used for moving x & y? I know the z axis uses a servo motor, which I like. But this important info only came from watching their video starring "Mr. Router". And even Mr. Router didn't mention anything about the specifics of the x&y motors or ball screw configuration.
Do they (ShopSabre) use one or two ball screws for the y axis?
What are the torque ratings of their axis's motors?
From what I understand a 2 ball-screw/2 stepper motor design (one on each side) used for y axis is better?
The Stinger II uses all servo motors on all axis's, which I believe gives you increased torque? And the motors use a "closed loop" system (which improves accuracy?). But they also don't mention (or I didn't see it), whether they use a one or two ball screw/motor system for the y axis.
I e-mailed Shopsabre asking about the motors used for the x&y axis's, but just got a standard sales reply, no additional tech info, and no info about the x&y motors.
In my humble opinion, as a beginner, I believe these companies should state what the torque rating of their stepper motors are and whether they are nema 23, 34 or servo, and whether they use a single ball screw/motor in the bottom center of their machines, or two ball screw/motors situated on each side of their machines for the Y Axis.
We also always know what the horsepower of spindles and router are, but never their torque. Isn't torque a more important criterion than HP?
Does anyone else here cut guitar bodies or hardwoods in similar dimensions?
Sincere thanks for any insight or advice, very much appreciated. (Sorry if this got a little "ranty", just had some strong coffee...)
TonyAme
I was using the smaller 2hp water cooled spindle, maybe the 3HP would have made the difference. I considered buying the 3hp spindle upgrade for $1,300. But then construction of the gantry (plastic and aluminum?) didn't seem like it was meant for cutting through thick hardwoods.Not sure what you're doing wrong, but I've got an HD520 (3HP water cooled spindle) and easily cut at 100 IPM at a .125 depth with a .25 Dia. bit, and no problems. I've also go a friend that always runs his machine at 170 IPM at .125 depth while cutting 1.75" material for 3D models. I also sell the Shark and always run at 100 IPM.
The z axis (where the spindle holder is) could be flexed. The z axis ballscrew just wiggles on the bottom (no support for the bottom end of the z axis ballscrew, it's just floating there).
The machine seemed to me like it was really meant for making signs, crafts and laser engraving, not for guitar bodies or things like that.
That's entirely possible unless you use really shallow depth of cut and slow feed rate.The machine seemed to me like it was really meant for making signs, crafts and laser engraving, not for guitar bodies or things like that.
You could go very, very slowly (speeds/feeds) and maybe get a big job done (like hardwood guitar body). I used something like 15 ipm at 12,000 rpm at about 0.125" cut depth/pass, and a lot of noise and struggle, on pine!That's entirely possible unless you use really shallow depth of cut and slow feed rate.
Using Amana 1/4" straight and spiral down cut (no improvement in performance between those bits). I also tried 8 ipm, 18,000 rpm at 0.1" depth per pass. It would take something like an hour to cut though 1.5" thick piece of pine. At each of these settings the machine made a racket, squealing and almost getting bogged down at some points. (The spindle HP and steppers are too weak).
I see a lot of people talking about how a spindle is much quieter compared to a router, however in my experience, the spindle still makes a very high pitch squeal (from the bit, not the motor) as it cuts. Even with a spindle you must use hearing protection. The important difference between spindle and router is performance, not noise, as everyone goes on about.
I did not dare try a piece of walnut or maple. I was told by Shark support to go at 0.0625" depth per pass at a higher IPM feed at 18,000. But at that point I realized this was not the right machine for my purposes.
It would probably be good for signs, plaques and crafts if anyone reading this is considering buying one.
*Now go get your dust shoe and make a fish-shaped sign!
That is absolutely the case. If my dust collector is on I have to look at the spindle to see if it's running. But all bets are off when I begin cutting because that is far louder than everything else. I don't want to hijack your thread with my videos but here's my channel so you can choose a CNC video and see how loud/quiet the spindle is.I see a lot of people talking about how a spindle is much quieter compared to a router, however in my experience, the spindle still makes a very high pitch squeal (from the bit, not the motor) as it cuts.
David,That is absolutely the case. If my dust collector is on I have to look at the spindle to see if it's running. But all bets are off when I begin cutting because that is far louder than everything else. I don't want to hijack your thread with my videos but here's my channel so you can choose a CNC video and see how loud/quiet the spindle is.
Please feel free to hijack my thread, it's very informative. The thing no one really mentions is that the important reason for choosing a spindle over a router shouldn't be because you're worried about noise, it should be because a spindle is supposed to be more durable (able to operate at longer periods, no motor brushes to get worn out) and a spindle could be more powerful.
Dust and noise should be the least of your concerns, if your machine can't do what you want it to do, then that stuff doesn't matter. Frist things to consider:
1. Will the machine do what I intend it to do (type and thickness of wood/material you will mostly use).
2. The size of the bed doesn't really matter *unless you are going to make very large signs or plaques (forget doing cabinetry or guitar bodies with the Shark HD520 or any other machine like it).
3. Even if you upgrade to a 3HP spindle, are the stepper motors strong enough to move the cutter through the material you indent to cut, is the gantry and z axis rigid enough?
4. How is the gantry made, and of what material? If you see a machine whose gantry is made of plastic covered aluminum then you should think along the lines of using the machine for crafts, plaques, signs, engraving, etc., NOT processing thick hardwoods (like in cabinetry or solid body guitar building).
*If using a high HP router or spindle (at least 3HP) with a gantry made of welded steel, or reinforced thick aluminum, now you're starting to cook. Also, look at the type of motors used for x, y and z. NEMA 34 is better than NEMA 24 for hardwood processing. A stronger stepper motor can pull the router/spindle bit through the wood more easily, than a smaller stepper motor can.
Also, look at the z axis ballscrew, is the bottom of the ballscrew attached to anything? To contribute to the rigidity of a machine when cutting, the bottom of the z axis ballscrew should be inserted into some kind of support, not just flopping around loosely, unattached to anything.
These are some of the things I've learned and I hope future readers of this post will be helped by this thread because I believe it sheds some light on info the retailers don't mention, or at lease what I found to be not obvious. I sold my Shark after 4 weeks for 1/2 of what I paid, deciding to cut my loses after considering the option of upgrading to a 3HP spindle for $1,300 more.
Hopefully, I can gain some "good karma" points from the universe. *Now go dust off your dust boot and make something for Father's Day that will make the recipients big toe shoot up in their dust boot!
Good points. I have a friend with a router on his machine instead of a spindle. He's replaced the router more times than he'll admit in the last 4-5 years but it's at least 3-4 times and maybe more. And he has to be cautious not to overheat the router with long jobs. He has said many times that he wishes he had listened and bought a spindle to start with - either air or water cooled.
David,Good points. I have a friend with a router on his machine instead of a spindle. He's replaced the router more times than he'll admit in the last 4-5 years but it's at least 3-4 times and maybe more. And he has to be cautious not to overheat the router with long jobs. He has said many times that he wishes he had listened and bought a spindle to start with - either air or water cooled.
What kind of things is your friend making (what kind of wood)? I can see why the length of cutting can be hard on a router (or spindle).
David, Just checked out your youtube channel, very nice work there!
Plaques, mostly. Nothing severe, just lots of usage.David,
What kind of things is your friend making (what kind of wood)? I can see why the length of cutting can be hard on a router (or spindle).
Thank you!David, Just checked out your youtube channel, very nice work there!
That squealing you here is because you are cutting too slow for the rpm you are using. If you are hearing squealing, your feedrate is too low, or rpm too high.however in my experience, the spindle still makes a very high pitch squeal (from the bit, not the motor) as it cuts.
1 - 20 of 33 Posts
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