[Tally]

I need some major help from you guys and / or gals that have experience in templates and bull nose bits. I am very open to any and all suggestions because I am getting flat stumped.
1) I am a custom lure maker and I want to make a flat sided crank bait. I am trying to use a bull nose bit to round the top (back) and the bottom (belly)
2) I do not want to lose any fingers. So if this can not be done safely, then I will trash the idea.
3) The type of wood I will be using is cedar, poplar and other wood like them. The size of the wood is: 1/2" thick and I am talking about routing a lure that is 2 3/4" long.
4) I have tried doing this without a touter table and can't figure this out. I have a table on the way so either way will be okay.
5) I have made a template and will show you a photo at the end of the post. I have never made a template for routing.......so I may have started off wrong from the get go.
6) One of the problems I ran into was: their is 1/8" of flat bit on each end of the bull nose bit. So the template needs to be adjusted for this.
7) the bull nose bit I have is 1/2 "
hopefully this is enough information for somone to help me out. If not, just ask for what you need and I will try to provide the information. If I can figure out how to load the photo, here it is.
thanks, Tally

 

[KENNETH KIDWELL]

Im not real sure how your lure looks when fineshed but one way might be to use longer strips of wood the width and thickness you need and run them through the bullnose bit mounted in a router table to get the sides shaped then cut to length then form the front and back with a table mounted belt or disc sander.
like i said im not sure what the lures look like to try to help any further good luck and hope this helped.

 

[Tally]

Thanks for the reply Kenneth. the SIDES of the bait with stay completely flat and the top and bottom is what I am trying to round. I will try and post a picture with arrows showing what part I want to round next week. If this was a straight line I was routing there would be no concern but the hump on the back and the concaved part near the tail makes it a bit tricky.......for me anyway.
Tally

 

[BobandRick]

Look forward to seeing the pictures of the item you are trying to make.

 

[Tally]

thanks for at least showing some interest in trying to help me.

Here are the pictures that I promised to post, showing what I am trying to accomplish. Sorry, but I can not take credit for the making of this particular bait but I can tell you a very good friend of mine did. Right now we sand the lure into its round status and that is why we are looking for a better way to round the bait......Sanding is very boring and time consuming

I hope these photos help someone steer me in the right direction so I can speed up my production. I am open to any and all suggestions.
Thanks again!!!
Tally

 

[Hamlin]

You may consider using a drum sander on it. That's a real small piece to be letting fingers get that close to a high spinning bit.

Ken

 

[Tally]

thanks Ken. Yes I have used a drum sander and if they made one that was 1/2" round, that would be ideal and very safe. We have even discussed making a devise out of a gringing type stone but I thought surely there was a better way. My table arrived yesterday so I am going to proceed to figure this out with great caution.

I appreciate the site and allowing me to ask my question(s). I thought maybe someone had worked with small pieces with a router and would get me on track. If anyone can think of any saftey measures I need to be aware of, other than the obvious, please let me know. While brrowsing the web I stumbled onto this photo (below). Has anyone tried this technique or have an opinion onif it would work on what I am trying to do?

Thanks again for allowing me to intrude on such a great site. I will visit often to read the post. I have learned a great deal in my brief stay.
Tally

 

[Hamlin]

You're welcome. That's what the site is for though, ask an learn. Never to old nor to young to learn.

As for round sand drums, look into a dremel. Can't remember off the top of my head but I believe they have 1/2 or 3/4 sanding drums. Another thing you may consider, use a 1/4 round over bit with the method shown in that pic you posted.

Welcome to the board.

Ken

 

[Tally]

Thanks Ken. Is a roundover bit less aggressive than a bull nose? Can I achieve a "full round top and bottom or will there be a smal flat spot where the roundover bit would meet in the middle?
Tally

 

[Hamlin]

It depends on what size of round over an what depth you set it at. Always best to use a scrap piece to find what you're happy with, make adjustments, etc. Hope this helps.

ken

 

[Tally]

Thanks Ken......I will try a few different things and I may be back with some more basic (for you) questions. Unfortunately, I am at the at in the middle. I am not young and I am creeping up on old.....LOL
Tally

 

[template tom]

thanks Ken. Yes I have used a drum sander and if they made one that was 1/2" round, that would be ideal and very safe. We have even discussed making a devise out of a gringing type stone but I thought surely there was a better way. My table arrived yesterday so I am going to proceed to figure this out with great caution.

I appreciate the site and allowing me to ask my question(s). I thought maybe someone had worked with small pieces with a router and would get me on track. If anyone can think of any saftey measures I need to be aware of, other than the obvious, please let me know. While brrowsing the web I stumbled onto this photo (below). Has anyone tried this technique or have an opinion onif it would work on what I am trying to do?

Thanks again for allowing me to intrude on such a great site. I will visit often to read the post. I have learned a great deal in my brief stay.
Tally

Tally
In my humble opinion routing such small shapes with the router in the router table is not the way to go.
There seems to be a flat end where the eye screw has been fitted??? or am I looking at it wrong.
If this is so then there is good reasoning to make a simple template to rout your shape from a larger piece of material then cut to size
Small cabinet handle is only 74mm long
Tom

 

[Tally]

Yes Tom, there is a flat end on the tail. I am not sure I am following you on the rout the shape and cut to size part. Please explain and thanks for your opinion. My feelings will never get hurt by an opinion.
Tally

 

[reible]

Hi,

Just catching up after being away for a while but this post looked interesting so let me take a shot at a simple method of doing these that will save a bunch of steps and be reasonable safe to do.

First, I did not actual do this as described but I have done something very much like this with my overhead pin router.....

First look for bits called a "groove forming" bits, the one you need would have a name like "flat bottom round over". The bit looks like a round over bit but where the bearing would normal be it has a cutting edge. What this will do with the use of template guides and a template is cut and edge the "bait" at the same time.

The fixture to hold this will have to have alignment holes as the one side is routed then the template and workpiece are flipped over, and the alignment hole then keep the cuts matching for the second side.

The first attachment show an idea of what the template looks like.... For this type design the cut out will need to be the width or greater of the guide bushing and the off set is dependent on the bit you pick. I would also say that I just picked 4 but you might do 8 or 10 at a time or maybe just 2 that is up to you. You could also do the pattern the other way but this way protects the "bait" better.

What you will be left with is a board with several rounded over pieces which then are cut from the board as shown in attachments 2 and 3.

[edit: I sort of cheated on what the part would look like on attachment 2... it would really look like attachment 4 with the scrap wood left...... the cut would then remove both the waste and the "bait". I was trying to not have the pattern and the workpiece look alike to much but maybe this will clear things up for everyone....... sorry if I confused you.]

Ed

 

[template tom]

Hi,

First, I did not actual do this as described but I have done something very much like this with my overhead pin router.....

First look for bits called a "groove forming" bits, the one you need would have a name like "flat bottom round over". The bit looks like a round over bit but where the bearing would normal be it has a cutting edge. What this will do with the use of template guides and a template is cut and edge the "bait" at the same time.

The fixture to hold this will have to have alignment holes as the one side is routed then the template and workpiece are flipped over, and the alignment hole then keep the cuts matching for the second side.

Ed

Hi Ed
Welcome back
Good to see you put pen to paper and don't you agree this sort of question gets our old grey matter going,
Firstly I have had very little experience with the overhead Pin router so I will not comment I suppose it is like the router in the table only working from the Top.
The Bit you mentioned is what I call a FACE/EDGE cutter as it will act as a plunge cutter as well as radius the edge. These I use all the time especially when I am putting a moulding on a picture frame for example.
I follow the idea of the pin in the lower template and the cutter comming down to rout the shape. You mention the template and the work piece being flipped over, this I am not clear with. Are you using a Female Template or a Male Template? The cut out for your pin to follow. How do you ensre realignment when they are flipped over?

This is where I prefer to use the template guide and use the plunge router working from above. I personally would not use the router table on such a small object.

Now I know that the end section is a flat surface I have something to work on, either screwing the piece of material to a jig, or using a larger piece then cut to size when the it has ben shaped.

I would be iterested in some other comments surely theremust be someone out there whow may have attempted something like this. If I get a chance I will give it a try if there is no alternative solution.

 

[Tally]

AWESOME!!!!!
I am glad to see that you guys find this post both interesting and a challenge.

Ed, you are on the same path as me. The idea was to cut / rout as many as possible at one time. Until you two took off with this post, I would have settled for just being able to do one. 8-10 at one time would beperfect.

First attachment you have, and correct me if I am wrong. Are you talking about leaving both the bait and the wood out side of the cut / groove attached to the main board. By this I guess it looks to me as if there is an inside and outside template if you will. "this way protects the bait better".....meaning there is less chance of the bait breaking off?
Overhead pin router....hmmm!!!! I have heard and seen these but never really paid any attention to them. I guess I need to do some research here.

Tom......thanks for asking those questions to Ed. This is really starting to take shape a bit. I have no problem with using some sort of small pins to hold the template to the wood. A little filler and touch with sand paper and she will be ready to go. Besides, the bait gets sealed with a clear epoxy.

"If I get a chance I will give it a try if there is no alternative solution."
WOW!!! Now that is what I call help.
This has been my pleasure and please keep this post going.
thanks,
Tally

 

[BobandRick]

How many of these things do you want to make?

If it is a fair number then one pattern shape of your item and guide with the plunge round over router bit is the way to go.

With the pattern located over a block the size of your item with a thickness of 4-6". Use the plunge round over, pattern and guide cut the shape into the end of the block. Remove the block from the pattern and cut the end of the block off at 1/2" thickness. You now have the shape of your item, it's 1/2" thick and is rounded over on one side.

To get the other side rounded over you could mount the piece on the end of a support block with a screw. Then you could round over the other side, with a round over bit as shown in your photo keeping your fingers on the support block.

 

[Tally]

With the pattern located over a block the size of your item with a thickness of 4-6". Use the plunge round over, pattern and guide cut the shape into the end of the block. Remove the block from the pattern and cut the end of the block off at 1/2" thickness. You now have the shape of your item, it's 1/2" thick and is rounded over on one side.

Not to sound dumb here, but I am not following what you are saying.
thanks Tally

 

[reible]

"I follow the idea of the pin in the lower template and the cutter comming down to rout the shape. You mention the template and the work piece being flipped over, this I am not clear with. Are you using a Female Template or a Male Template? The cut out for your pin to follow. How do you ensre realignment when they are flipped over?"

Hi Tom,

The first cut is made where the bit will do the plunge cut and radius the edge. In either case
1)you are using the router above the work hand held and the template on top to control the cut
or
2)overarm pin router where the template is on the bottom

You now have to flip the work piece over to cut the second side.

The second cut is the tricky one as it needs to align to what has already been cut. To do this I flip both the template and the work piece over. The tempate is now on the wrong side to use. This is where the alignment pins come in to play. I lift the work piece off the pins. I push the template pins through (to face the other side of the template) then slide the work piece on the pins. This reverses the stack and the template is now on the side you need it and the second cut can be made.

Hope that makes it clear..... If not we can try it again.

Yes the bits you have shown are the ones I was talking about. They work great for a lot of projects and are nice additions to your bit collects for those of you who don't already have some.

Ed

 

[reible]

Hi again,

How an overarm pin router works is the router is on an arm above the work piece. The table has a pin (normal sizes of 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2") The pin stands above the table and is used to follow the pattern or template.

In the case I was descibing I would make a pattern of one of the "baits" then use that to cut the shapes shown in the template attachment 1. This sits on the pin in the table, the work piece is above that and the router is lowered into the work piece and the pattern is followed. You then move pattern to pattern and when in this case all four have been cut things need to get flipped over. You do the same thing and when they are all cut you end up with the 4 pieces attached to the work piece and you cut them off and do what ever else needs to be done.

This is much the same as what could be done with the use of a hand held router with guide bushing and a template mounted above the piece. This again requires the work piece to be turned over and the second side to be done. This is where the alignment is needed to make sure the "bait" is not misaligned.

When you use a router with either of these methods the pattern can be used to protect the parts you want. Where ever the pattern is the router can never go....... If you made a tempate to cut out the bait that requires you to keep the guide against an edge the rotation of the router along with your efforts can keep it to the edge but if you were to not be watch and thinking you could rout into the opening thus making a new designed "bait".

Think of it this way. You make a pattern with a large round hole in the middle. Now you can use the template to make more holes. Each hole is never going to be larger then the next as the guide prevents it from doing so. But that same template could be used to cut out circles like maybe a wheel. As long as you stay tight to the pattern each wheel will be the same... but if some sawdust/wood chips built up at some point along the edge and the template guide followed the edge until it got to the that then followed the chips around that portion of the circle the wheel will no longer come out round..... the wood chips will have caused the cut to go off at that point....... If this same thing happen to you when you were using it to make holes you simple go back and run by that spot again after you clean the chips away and you have another perfect circle.

Now is this making sense or can someone else expain this better.....

Ed