Would it be easier to remove the molding and shim the jamb?

 

Tom...my initial thought is to suggest replacing the jamb...if it's that bad it's probably a good idea...however...

Having said that, and in responding more directly to your question, I think you can get behind the jamb and reinforce with shims in the area where the new plate will go.

I'm guessing you can remove the interior trim and that will give you access to the space between the door frame and the stud to beef it up with shims or spacer, etc... If the exterior is easier, so be it but that would require you removing the screen door components...better to do it from the inside. Your multi-tool should help quite a bit in removing the trim without damage.

You can always replace the trim should you damage it taking it off...

...that's what I would do...

 

Tom, I did this type of repair on a house a few years ago and it worked fine.

 

What do you think? Will this work or is there a better, easier way to go about this.

Tom

drill two holes in the geometric center of where the top and bottom screws of the plate are w/ a forstner bit all the way through the jamb and part way, as in shallow, into the jack/trimmer stud...
glue in hardwood dowels making sure they bottom out in the hole in the stud...
cut them flush to the jamb's surface..
you now have shims to hold against the plate, alleviate stress and hold the jamb solid...
use at least 3'' screws to hold the plate...
go w/ as large of a diameter dowel as you can manage/fit...
if the screws need to go through the dowels, drill clearance holes through the dowels for the screws...

after you drill the jamb have a look to see if there are any nails you'll hitting w/ your bit...
if so, don't drill the stud, just surface glue the dowel to the stud...

 

It's chronic problem regarding storm doors, short jamb screws and no wind chain stops or incorrectly placed and adjusted stops. I've seen and worked through previously damaged and repaired jambs.

I suggest until you're ready to either remove the door to replace the jamb or the entire door you attempt to glue and clamp the damaged jamb area then apply the plate. Ensure you use the plate's storm door bracket holes to predrill undersized holes into the 2X4 jack this'll prevent the bracket from tearing out in the future but not prevent damage to the storm door. A shock absorbing chain stop can minimize wind damage but not stop it; the storm door chain bracket can still tear out of the storm door. Even using through bolts and double brackets, they'll prevent the chain from pulling free but may warp the door to the point it may not close properly if at all.

The only thing one can do to prevent wind damage is to ensure the storm is properly closed and engaging the striker plate then lock it, for front storm anyway. A properly adjusted HD closer is also a must. No one likes it but the only way to ensure it closes correctly is to have it close with a slight bang. This is often too fast for people who can't move through the opening quick enough and can't seem to get in the habit of remaining in contact with the storm on entry, (Too much like work).

Double closers may be required on doors with single and or double drafting strips especially if and when the glass is in place.

 

Dan3103, Nickp, Mike and Stick486,

Thanks for the replies. A little history on this door - There is a window right next to this door that I replaced way back, old double hung for an Anderson. Being relatively green at the time, I didn't look closely at the existing arrangement and went ahead and bought the closest Anderson, height OK but a little narrower. I removed the old window to find that the window jamb was directly attached to the door jamb - the wall had been framed with a header going the complete span and a half wall built under the window. As the new window was narrower, I shimmed a short piece of 2x4 away from the door jamb to give me the required rough opening for the window and toe nailed it in place. I don't have any photos - this was way before affordable digital cameras were available so couldn't /didn't document the process like I do now. On the outside, I nailed in a piece of 1/2" plywood to fill in the gap and pieced in some coli stock to finish it off. On the inside, I used ranch casing around the door and the window but ripped the piece on the side of the window to fit the space and directly butted it against the outer edge of the door trim.

Taking off the interior trim is an option - but the corner is glued and finish nailed across the miter so would probably have to be replaced. I don't have any more paint from the last time so would wind up having to repaint the kitchen. Not whining (really) but was hoping to have that on next year's schedule.

I had actually thought about the dowels, but was thinking of a dowel at each hole - so a bunch of holes. Stick, I kind of see what you're saying but do you mean a dowel under each set of four holes? If I use screws through the bracket as well as just the plate, that would be three dowels which is not really a problem - but the dowel would have to be about 2" diameter to pick up the 4-bolt pattern. The pattern is about 1-1/8" in the X-axis, 7/8" in the Y-axis and 1-7/16" on the diagonal, and the patterns are about 2" on center. I could do the top and bottom holes, let the glue dry and then bore the third hole - I don't have a Forstner bit that big, would have to buy one, and I'd have to check on 2" dowels at Lowes.

Something jogged my memory for some reason - that maybe the outside of the door jamb was tight up against the end 2x4 on the knee wall - so I took a 1/8" bit and drilled a couple of holes through the jamb and into the 2x4. I couldn't pick up a "gap" between the two pieces, even with drilling very slowly - there was no sudden jump in depth, so maybe there isn't any gap between the two parts.

Here's a quick layout of the 3 dowels and the holes to match the hole pattern in the plate - the rectangle is the dimension of the plate. What do you think?

Tom

 

Here's a quick layout of the 3 dowels and the holes to match the hole pattern in the plate - the rectangle is the dimension of the plate. What do you think?

Tom

Dowel to the inside of the plate out line or even inside of the four screws
the idea is to give the plate something to pull up against so that the jamb doesn't move.... they behave as standoffs...
the closer you get the wall of the dowel to side of the screw the better off you are...
you know, you can buy 6'' pieces/segments of closet rod at HD...

this works for hinges and strikes too when the jamb is bit flaky but not really damaged....
the key thing is that the screws have got to be firmly anchored into the trimmers...

 

Sometimes it's easier to just bite the bullet and start with all new material.
New jamb, hinges, lockset, deadbolt and long screws to thoroughly anchor the jamb to the framing. And new Interior trim!
Maybe just buy a new metal clad prehung exterior door?
Throw those hinge mounting screws out and replace them with long screws as above!
a) the weight of the door is no longer wracking the jamb, and down the road sagging/binding
b) waaay tougher for for some bozo to kick your door in during a B&E
....not the perfect solution but definitely an improvement

In some cases, an out-swinging door means more security. Especially for backdoors where the street visibility is less.

 

Dan,

That's probably true but that kind of project always snowballs on me. A few years back, I mentioned to my wife that the LR/DR carpet was looking a little shabby (didn't like the color anyway) and that we should replace it. So, while I was painting, it made sense to put up crown molding (LR, DR, hallway and over the foyer) and new trim around the windows. Then, as I had messed the place up anyway, we might as well tear out the wrought iron handrail around the foyer and down the stairs (Split foyer) and replace it all with oak. Then the tiles in the foyer didn't match the new carpet so that led to cork laminate flooring and a new front door (don't remember how she justified that one). If I tear out the old back door, I'd have to take the window out to reframe it properly (probably not a bad idea to have a complete stud on the side of the door) so we're talking probably redoing the drywall on that wall of the kitchen - and then we're back to painting the kitchen again. The outside of the house is covered with asbestos shingles so probably going to have to juggle them around because the outside door trim won't wind up exactly in the same place, plus I'll still have the same problem that the door and window are too close together. I've never seen this before but the shingles aren't actually nailed to the house; there are rows of a metal strip that have a dogleg and then a groove in the bottom where the shingle sits, this pushes the bottom of the shingle out and then the next strip is nailed on top and so forth. You can't buy this any more - I tried when I remodeled the bathroom, closed over the window for the one piece tub unit and had to shingle over the opening. I don't have any more shingles now to replace those that are too short or damaged so would wind up having to strip the shingles off the whole house and replace with vinyl siding. Probably an exaggeration, but that's the way that my renovation projects normally progress. Tomorrow, I'm going to dig through my offcuts to see if I have the 1" dowel, carefully check the jamb for nails - there are none in the face but I forgot about the ones coming in from the (out)side where the brick mold would be nailed to the jamb. I'm thinking that I could lay out the hole centers and drill 1/2" holes with a twist drill which should tell me if there are any nails there - I'm going to use a drill guide to keep the holes square so no problem lining up the Forstner bit to open them up, I'd start with the Forstner bit anyway, go down 1/8", drill the 1/2" through the jamb and check for nails and then set the bit back in the original c'bore. I'll glue in the dowels and then see how much cosmetic work I need to do before cleaning the jamb up and repainting it. And then on to the next item on the "Honey-Do" list.

Tom

 

Tom, this is an inexpensive way to go about it that is easy on the back.

6 Function Metal Detector

 

Thanks Mike, I'll have to check that out on my next trip to HF.

Tom

 

How about putting a 6' patio door, Tom? Solve all your problems at one time.
6' Wood French doors if you're feeling flush...

 

Nice, but the whole room is only 9' wide - 2' countertop plus 1' from edge of the top to the door so the patio door would take up the rest of the wall - and the kitchen table would be right in front of the door. One of the neighbors has a similar house - they took out the wall between the kitchen and dining room which is right next to it, closed off the entrance door and put in French doors opening onto the deck. This allowed them to turn the corner with the countertop and wind up with more work surface. The problem is that the other end of the French door winds up close to the corner of the house - and the deck design wound up a little convoluted as far as getting the stairs down to ground level in. And my wife didn't want to open up the two rooms anyway - but still can complain that the kitchen is too small, not enough counter space.......

Maybe 2o years ago, but I don't want to start off any big projects now that I'm retired. Although I'm getting ready to tear the paneling off the family room in the basement and change over to sheetrock - but plan is to sub out the framing and drywall. I can do the laminate floor and suspended ceiling (I hope).

Tom

 

...Unless of course the window is over a counter-top.

 

you sharing your honey do list now???

 

No ! It's my list!!

 

which page???...

 

You peeked! :surprise:

 

buddy saw mine stuck to refrigerator..
looked through it...

says... why don't you just build another house.. it's be easier...

 

For want of a nail, the shoe was lost. etc. etc. etc.
Snowballs in any weather.

 

I am attaching a photo of a repair I made a fwew years back after someone broke in at my back door and damaged the jam\. Somethin like this is more secure and cheaper yhan the store brought version.

 

how do you plan on flushing the 1'' dowels???
ummmmmmm....
I would have used a larger dia main dowel, something at least in the 1½ range...
the larger dowel shows it's stuff when you get the wall of the dowel really close to the screw holes...

Note:...
the screw holes in the jamb should be clearanced for the screws...
the key thing is that the screws have got to be firmly anchored into the trimmers...

to plug screw holes use a tooth pick or a cluster of them..
going into the end grain of a dowel tends to split the dowel losing holding power...
end grain may may redirect/skew the screw and it won't end up where you want it or it won't go in straight...
bamboo kabob skewers are are a fair second choice for plugs...

 

Flushing the dowels and plugs is a snap with Fein Multi-Tool (one of the handiest tools I've got, find more uses for it all the time). I redid the sketch of the dowels showing the hole pattern in the repair plate - the screws wind up alongside the dowels rather than going through them so that's not a problem. The plugged holes won't be getting a screw in them - I've used this as a repair for many years (the reamer is sold by Veritas, among others, and I've made various size plugs using different diameter dowels - up to 5/16" diameter, depending on the hole being plugged). I'll drill clearance holes for the screws as you recommend, and also 3" long screws - the depth through the jamb to the face of the stud is somewhat less than 2" so I'll have better than 1" of penetration into the stud - with 6 screws, I shouldn't have a problem with the screws pulling out.

Thanks again for the help, the dowel idea certainly saved me a lot of work cutting the hole and fitting a block.

 

that Fien MM is about the best thing to come along since sliced bread...

 

Wow, took me longer than I thought to get this wrapped up but I've been working on (too many) other things at the same time. I had to grind out the edge of the nail that showed up but that wasn't a big deal. Spread the split a little and forced some Titebond in there and then used a spreader clamp between the jambs until the glue dried. I wound up taking out a little more wood at the split, used Bondo Wood Filler to do the majority of the patching and then regular filler to get the little left over dings. The last screw through the plate hit a screw in the end stud of the pony wall - only think I could do was drill through with the long 3/16" bit I had and get past the nail but then the screw didn't have enough bite. Had an "Aha" moment and stripped some 0000 steel wool off a pad and packed it down into the hole - the screw did bite a little as it seated but I'll try to remember to order a 3-1/2" long SS screw on my next order from Bolt Depot. I made a pattern for the sill, tomorrow's project is to bend some aluminum and wrap it and that should finish the jamb repair.

Thanks to Stick for the suggestion to use dowels, that made a nice solid repair - it dawned on me as I was doing it that it's almost like pillar bedding a rifle.

 

1... Spread the split a little and forced some Titebond in there and then used a spreader clamp between the jambs until the glue dried.

2... I wound up taking out a little more wood at the split, used Bondo Wood Filler to do the majority of the patching and then regular filler to get the little left over dings.

3... The last screw through the plate hit a screw in the end stud of the pony wall - only think I could do was drill through with the long 3/16" bit I had and get past the nail but then the screw didn't have enough bite.

4... Had an "Aha" moment and stripped some 0000 steel wool off a pad and packed it down into the hole - the screw did bite a little as it seated but

5... I'll try to remember to order a 3-1/2" long SS screw on my next order from Bolt Depot. I made a pattern for the sill, tomorrow's project is to bend some aluminum and wrap it and that should finish the jamb repair.

6... Thanks to Stick for the suggestion to use dowels, that made a nice solid repair - it dawned on me as I was doing it that it's almost like pillar bedding a rifle.

1... use the exhaust of your shop vac to ''push'' the glue in to the slit/crack...
if you can get behind the split use the vac to ''pull'' the glue in to the slit/crack...

2... good...

3... we gots fixes for that ya know...

4... dig all that steel wool out and replace w/ glued in toothpicks or a glued in shish kabob skewer..

5... why the SS screws??? use a 3½'' ceramic coated or ACQ rated screw... lot stronger, won't stretch or cam out...

6... yur welcome and it's more like a bridge column holding up the rest of the structure...

 

Short day today because my wife had a doctor's appointment this morning and the ball game's getting ready to come on so all I got done was wrapping the door sill, 3 hours from setting up the brake to putting my tools away. I'd made the pattern yesterday so hoping that things would go smoothly today. The only possible problem I saw was the screws in the threshold - the way my luck goes, one of the screws is rusted and breaks off in the sill and I spend the rest of the day trying to get it out. Luckily, they backed out easily and I was able to slide the aluminum under it and tighten them back down with no problem.

 

Q???

is the new metal slopped down and out...
next..
did you bed caulk the new piece and the threshold...???

 

Yes, I used a sliding bevel to measure the slope out of the wooden sill and bent the aluminum a little tighter by eye. I also overbent the bottom so it "clamped" to the outer edge of the wood sill. The aluminum slides under the threshold by about 1/2" and is held when the threshold is screwed back down. I had to pull the aluminum off one time when I was fitting it initially to trim the tabs on the ends, struggled a little to get it off because of the pinch on the wood sill.

I was only going to caulk the edges where the wrap met the jamb and brick mold - am I supposed to do more? Are you saying I need to take it back off (only the one trim nail at each end where I tucked the front edge and top over the end of the sill) and zig-zag a bead of caulk on the sloped surface of the sill - and a bead under the outer edge of the old aluminum threshold?

 

forgot something...
clean all that caulk off/up and replace it w/ what I recommended and it should last for several decades...

 

Gee, and I thought that I was pretty much finished with this part of the project. But now that I see what you're saying, it makes a whole lot of sense - sealing the inside edge of the threshold and leaving a way for any water that gets in to drain out (kind of like not sealing the bottom edge of a storm window). I'm not totally clear about what you're saying on the wrap, let me think about it and maybe make a sketch - I'm self-taught as far as bending aluminum and that sounds as if it may be a little past my ability. I had one piece of metal left from wrapping my garage trim that was big enough to do the threshold, looks like I may be buying some more.

 

exactly on letting the water drain out...

there is no need to buy more...
modify what you have already made a wee bit..

rework the piece/return that turns up under the wooden threshold only...

right now it's pointed at 270° mark or more (275/280°?) making for a water catch/retainer...
open up that return up to say 190° or so and then fold the very edge of it back on it's self by a ¼'' tops...
make sure to squash this fold closed....

make sure to put the anti-slip tape on the aluminum...
VOE says it's a good thing especially when children and women enter the equation...

degree orientation is at the end view....
0/360/180° is vertical w/ 0/360° at the top...
90/270° is horizontal...

 

Got I now - straighten out the leg that turns under the wooden sill except for 10°, trim it to 1/2" (it's now 1-1/8") and hem it to stiffen it. The dots of Vulkem on the face of the sill will hold the wrap (as will the trim nail at each end). I'll have to do the hemming by hand now as I don't see a way to get it back on the brake, although I may be able to do the final crimp to get it good and tight on the brake. My local Lowes doesn't carry the Vulkem, but Home Depot does. I actually have the remains of a roll of the anti-slip tape from another project - it's about the texture of 50/60 grit sandpaper and 2" wide, the sloped portion of the sill is 2-7/8" so will work out well.

I was just going to run a bead of caulk around the joint at the bottom of the jamb and the wrap but I can see that this is going to give me a much better long term seal there, and really not much more work (other than rebending the wrap that is - and that would have been trivial if I'd done it when doing the initial bends).

Stick, thanks for taking the time to explain all this to me, I really appreciate it. I have a couple more projects coming up, I'll be back to take advantage of your experience.

Tom

 

Got I now -

1... straighten out the leg that turns under the wooden sill
2... trim it to 1/2" (it's now 1-1/8") and hem it to stiffen it.
3... I'll have to do the hemming by hand now as I don't see a way to get it back on the brake,
4... My local Lowe's doesn't carry the Vulkem, but Home Depot does.
5... I actually have the remains of a roll of the anti-slip tape from another project - it's about the texture of 50/60 grit sandpaper and 2" wide, the sloped portion of the sill is 2-7/8" so will work out well.
6... Stick, thanks for taking the time to explain all this to me, I really appreciate it. I have a couple more projects coming up, I'll be back to take advantage of your experience.

Tom

Good...

1... Yes..
2... ½'' net after hem..
3... over open it, step hem it and refold to required...
4... Good...
5... More good...

5... glad to help.. please do any time...

 

Can't get Vulkem up here, anymore, apparently.

 

Not around her either, I spent Tuesday riding all over town looking for any of the recommended caulks. Went to HD first as they show it on their web site - and that's apparently where you have to buy it. A contractor there told me that OSI Quad something was better but............. Finally gave in, came home and ordered it from Amazon (at twice the cost on HD's web site).

Yesterday was rainy so spent the morning trashing the first wrap I did - I took a photo of the hemming job and promptly deleted it off the camera. But, there was a problem with the brake too, it wasn't locking uniformly so spent the afternoon disassembling, cleaning and adjusting, works pretty good now. So I made another wrap this morning - and found that I can't follow instructions. For some reason, I got it in my head that the kickout (and of course the hem too) needed to be 1/4" long - Struggled with that but finally got it. Re-read Stick's post before starting the installation and see that the kick needed to be 1/2" and the hem 1/4". Fortunately the little boy down the street came in with a flat tire on his bike so at least was able to get something accomplished. Tomorrow, I'll make the wrap correctly and do the install as the weather is supposed to be nice - have the tube of Vulkem sitting on the floor next to the heating duct to make sure it will flow properly though.