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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I hate my job a lot of the time. I'm tired of working for someone.

Have about 20 years as an aerospace machinist.

I'm prototyping a tool line that I want to make my own business out of. At this stage, two of my designs will need Delrin or oak scales/grips. Some of my mold forms will need small corner radiuses. Have a Dremel router table that I plan to use for the small stuff.

Bought a used Craftsman router and table today. Still figuring out what it is exactly and where I need to repair and modify.

Have some router jig questions and such, but need to get my post count up so I can post sketches.

Hopefully, in a couple years, I can just do this with CNC. Hard to make myself buy new machines, however.
 

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Hello and welcome to the router forum Roy
 
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Hi Roy and welcome. As long as photos or sketches come out of your computer you don't need 10 posts. It's only if you use a photo sharing site that would require a link to. Use the advanced posting option and a list of allowable file extensions will be displayed. If you need help with it just ask.
 
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Welcome, Roy...you're gonna like it here...lots of knowledge people just waiting for questions...

Ask away...
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hi Roy and welcome. As long as photos or sketches come out of your computer you don't need 10 posts. It's only if you use a photo sharing site that would require a link to. Use the advanced posting option and a list of allowable file extensions will be displayed. If you need help with it just ask.
Nifty. Thanks for the heads up.
 

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Welcome to our sawdust pile Roy. The mental conversion to woodworking is much easier
than going the other way. We don;t work to the same accuracy.

I once worked on space related devices too. Apollo, Skylab, and the Space Shuttle. I'm a retired automation engineer (EE).

Say "hello" to me several times in separate replies and you will be able to post pictures and sketches.

Charley
 

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Hi Roy and happy you're joining in the fun. Serious skilled people like you are really appreciated here. Charley's heads up about precision is very true. Wood moves so you have to pay attention whenever you do a panel. It moves cross grain, not long grain. The wider the piece or panel, the more you have to accommodate the movement when assembling.

It was quite a process learning about this property of wood. :fie:
 

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BTW, one of my first jobs was at North American Aviation in Downey during the early days of Apollo. The Command and Service modules were made there. I was just in the photo dept., but really loved the occasional visit to the module fabrication areas. Those early versions were pre computer, and I remember engineers saying the gaps between panels were off by 1/4 inch. My brother started his engineering career there as a QC inspector doing destructive tests. What a time it was! Going to the moon.
 

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Roy, Welcome to the Router Forums! I'm an inventor and I guess one could call me "successful" but truth be known, I've failed many more times than I've succeeded, but I have a "never give-up" attitude that keeps me going. One of the most key elements of being an inventor is SECRECY, you cannot tell your ideas to others. People that you consider to be dear friends will steal your ideas and claim that they are their own ideas. The U. S. Patent & Trademark Office requires you to sign under sworn oath that you have kept you idea secret - if you don't or didn't, there's a good chance that your idea becomes unpatentable.
Many people are prone to lie about this and if it comes-back that one lied in the acquisition of a patent - there are severe (Federal Prison) penalties!

Certainly, you may need ideas or advice from others, but you need to go about getting it in a way that the person does not know "the big picture". I cannot over-stress the importance of these facts. You are among a great group of people who are very helpful and over the years, I've made some friends for life via "Router Forums".

Otis Guillebeau from Auburn, Georgia
 

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Hi again Roy, I usually post this for complete newbies, but I thought you might find some of it useful in some way: Welcome to the Forum. The following has been posted before so those who have read it before may wish to skip it.

These are the 17+ things that really helped me get going with woodworking. Hope it helps you as much as they did me.

1) If you are using Firefox browser, get a free add on YouTube download helper app. Search for videos on all aspects of woodworking that interest you and collect them. I watch a video on the topic of whatever project, or phase of a project, on which I'm currently working. VERY helpful to see it done a few times before you try it yourself.

My downloader puts a download button under the video on YouTube. Click the button, name the file (I always label it according to the tool or job it works on. For example, anything to do with routing, I label as "Router", which clusters all the similar videos together in Windows Explorer. All my videos go into a single folder. I sometimes watch woodworking video while on planes, which triggers some interesting conversations.

2) There are hundreds of used books on woodworking on Amazon. Order some on basic tools and woodworking. You'll need to learn to tune up saws and other tools, and books are how I learned to do these things. It wasn't until I tuned up my saws that good results began to happen. My saws cut exactly 90 and 45, or any angle I need now. Two books I really love are Bill Hylton’s “Woodworking with the Router,” and “The Joint Book” by Terrie Noll. The Noll Book is a really concise and heavily illustrated reference with great hints for making every variety of joints. There are lots of good table saw guides.

3) I made some of my first projects with MDF or ordinary plywood before using more expensive material. Make the same project several times with improved skill, material and workmanship each time. Great learning method.

4) Consider making cabinets or stands for each of your power tools as first projects. My first cabinet was of MDF and my sander and all my sanding gear still sit on and in it. I can't tell you how much confidence I got from building space efficient shop stands and now, all the tools in my smallish shop are on casters and easily moved around for use and cleanup. Put doors on every cabinet to reduce wandering dust and to master making face frames and doors. BTW, if you add casters, use two non swivels on the back and two locking casters on the front--make sure the lock secures both the wheel rotation and the swivel so your carts don't skip around in use. My shop made stands also take up far less floor space than the spread-legged ones that came with many tools, which makes it far easier to move tools around in a compact shop--which is necessary to clean out the insidious sawdust.

5) Many of the woodworking supply stores in the US (and I imagine overseas) have demos on weekends. Attend and get to know the people you meet there. They can turn you on to sources of wood and you can get some nice help and begin a friendship or two. Don’t forget to talk with the employees as well. At our local Rockler, several of the employees are serious and experienced woodworkers and always eager to help. I’ve also found some of the big box stores employ a few very experienced wood workers, carpenters, electricians and plumbers. You just have to start a brief conversation, if they seem knowledgeable, ask them about what they did before they worked at the store, that will get the conversation flowing.

6) Among your first purchases should be some form of dust control. Many woods are proven carcinogens and can quickly damage your lungs. Dust collection information is on this site. I had a 4-inch, home made system installed to collect sawdust (see update below), but I also have and recommend a dust mask with a small fan that pulls in pressurized air that not only keeps dust out, but also keeps my glasses from fogging. Got mine at Rockler and I keep a couple of sets of rechargable AA batteries ready to use.

For cutting just a piece or two, I keep surgical style disposable masks handy. I also built a box with 20x20 filter inside and a fan that pulls air through to remove fine airborne dust over time. You can even tape a filter to the back of a fan in a pinch. Don't take your mask off right after cutting or cleaning up because there is always dust floating around for awhile. If you start coughing, it means you need to pay very close attention to dust control and wearing a mask. It takes months to recover from a bout of working unprotected with MDF (Medium Density Fiberboard) without a mask.

Update: After spending a LOT of money trying to make my own dust collection system work, I bought a 4 inch/100mm, 2hp unit from Harbor Freight for about $200. It collects the sawdust in a plastic bag which is easier and far less messy to dispose of. The HF unit was on sale and goes on sale from time to time. I would have been money ahead to have bought it in the first place. There are many dust collection machines out there and I wouldn’t go the home made route again.

Chop and miter saws are usually the worst sawdust scattering offender in the shop. My solution was to use a clear plastic shower curtain that wraps around the saw and catches most of the sawdust that drops down into a collection box. Don’t force your cut on this kind of saw since that seems to make the scatter even worse. Pull the blade across the workpiece toward you for a shallow cut, then deepen the cut pushing the blade away. This channels more sawdust backwards into your collection system.

I also use my dust collection system to clean up the floor. It has one 4 inch flex hose that moves from tool to tool. My router fence has a 2.5 inch port behind the bit, on the fence. There is also a 4 inch port on the box that contains the router under the table. You can find an adapter that has a Y shape, one arm attaches to the 4 inch collector hose, the other connector goes to the fence port. It helps a lot. The problem with sawdust on the router table is that it can lift the workpiece up slightly so your cuts will be off. You must sweep this sawdust away frequently, so keep a wide brush handy.

7) Take your sweet time with projects, there's no rush and it is easy to have a project nearly complete, then make a careless, quick cut or other error that ruins all your good work. In most cases, it is best to fit pieces by putting them in place and marking rather than just measuring and cutting. Cut a bit over and shave the piece down (or use a good block plane) for an exact fit. A good block plane, nice and sharp, is a basic tool you'll use more often than you’d imagine.

8) Buy the very best table saw you can manage. It will quickly become the most used tool in your shop. You probably have 220. There are may saws with that voltage, including some used ones Since you're a machinist, you can probably easily bring a used saw up to speed pretty easily.

A little debt could move you up a notch on a new saw. Many saws have convertible motors so you can use 220 so you can get ggreat results and cut thicker wood. Get the best tools you can afford and set them up as precisely as you can, you’ll find instructions in your used book collection or on YouTube. Read the reviews and ask questions on the forum before you choose. To me, it is worth it to use credit if necessary to move up the quality scale for the table saw.

There are models called hybrid saws that have the mechanical works attached to the cabinet rather than the top, which is good. I recently replaced my old contractor saw with a Laguna Fusion saw. My shop is not wired for 220, so I was happy with the 110volt, 1 3/4 hp motor. Many forum members have been very happy with less expensive models, Grizzly for example, but I prefer the Laguna for its amazingly flat table and extensions and its fit and finish (and reasonable price). Learn to set up and tune up your saws and tools (books and videos show you how) because you can’t make anything great if your tools are even slightly off. Many people prefer the Saw Stop because it all but eliminates the risk of cutting off a digit, but you’ll pay about twice the price of otherwise equal saws.

Until you get a good table saw, you can get fair results using a circular saw and a straight edge. A home made straight edge is made by attaching a 1x straight edged board to a piece of hard particle type board (Masonite in the US). Run the saw along the 1x to cut off the excess and to form a perfectly straight edge. This will also reduce chipout or rough edges. The finished jig will be 250-300 mm wide (10-12 inches), by about 5 ft. long (150 cm).

The best safety device is paying very close attention to what you’re doing with a saw, but a close second on the table saw is a MicroJig Gripper, which lets you control wood on the saw while keeping your fingers safely away from the blade. There is a fancy and a simpler model, either of which is good.

Band saw add on: I had a conventional Delta band saw, and never used it much. Recently bought a Laguna 14/Twelve band saw primarily for resawing. It is a beauty and was on sale to boot. I have not really used it much so far nearly as much as a smaller 10 inch Rikon I use for minor cutoffs or curves. If you're making furniture with curves, a good, 14 inch or larger band saw is a must.

9) If you can, get an electrician to add a 220 outlet or two to your shop (USA only). If you set up in the garage, you may be able to use the electrical outlet for the dryer. There are many tools that require 220 volts to work best, and many used 220 v tools are available at really good prices--if you feel comfortable buying used. Another tool source is to visit estate sales. Every once in awhile, you find tools no one else in the family desires or knows the value of, so you can get them cheap.

If you don't have a router yet, I have come to like the Triton TRA001, which is perfect for table use, particularly since you can adjust height quite precisely from the above the table with its built in lift. That feature really saves my knees. However, it is just too heavy for this old guy to control freehand. I really like the Bosch 1617 EVSPK for hand held use. There is a newer model that has a light and switch on the handle that costs more. Both come in a kit with fixed and plunge base. Bosch has many accessories available that are very well made. Others like different brands, but Mike recently checked in on the topic and compared PorterCable plus other brands and I thought the Bosch came out ahead. I prefer the raising and lowering mechanism on the Bosch with its precise micro adjustment knob. The Bosch fixed base can be used as a lift in a table. The books on routers and other topics are really useful for understanding some of the arcane woodworking terms associated with this must have tool..

10) When it comes to router bits, try to stick to the half inch (12mm) shafts with carbide cutting tips. These are astonishingly sharp. Bosch and Freud are easily available at HD and Lowes, but there are lots of other excellent brands including the well liked Whiteside and Sommerfield bits. Be careful of those ultra sharp tips, which are fragile. I'd suggest storing them in one of those foam lined cases you can get pretty cheap from Harbor Freight, loosely packed so they don't click together. A few of the cheap bits don’t have carbide tips. Spiral bits are sometimes used to cut grooves. Carbide spiral bits are both expensive and fragile and it takes very little abuse to ruin them. Many use high speed steel bits for that purpose.

I buy bits as I need them and don't much care for kits. However, someone recently suggested getting a kit to start out with, then gradually replacing only the bits you actually use with top grade bits. This makes some sense to me, but stick to the half inch shafts if you can manage it--most kits I’ve seen have 1/4 inch shafts. I would avoid huge sets with odd bits you are unlikely ever to use. A few standard bits most of us have are the round over bits. You can get them in different sizes, but mostly you’re likely to use the quarter, half and ¾ sizes. Another bit that is very useful for cabinetry is the half inch rabbiting bit with a bearing. Some come with a changable bearing that allows you to change the depth of the rabbit. Doing fancier stuff makes those cash register numbers spin because door bit sets, for example, are pricey!

One more thing about using bits, don’t try to take off too much wood in one pass. Make several passes taking a little more wood with each pass. Pay attention to the grain of the wood (that is covered in most books on routing) with a final pass just shaving and making for a very smooth finish. My personal rule is to cut no more than 1/8 th of an inch per pass. The larger the bit, the slower you should set the speed control.

11) The most useful item I own for my saws is a Wixey digital angle gauge, which allows me to set up all my saws to exact angles (eg: 90 degrees to the table). It wasn't until I started being meticulous about this that my projects started working out right. These are about $30 on Amazon.

I have a Bosch 10 inch compound sliding miter saw that I also love, but use it mainly for cross cutting long pieces, but its ability to cut at precise angles is wonderful. I use this saw more for construction projects than fine projects. I used a shower curtain suspended around this saw to help control the sawdust. It helps some. The other hint on a sliding miter saw is to make the first cut pulling the blade toward you, not too deep. Then push down and back. The first cut makes a little channel so the sawdust has a path back into the shower curtain.

12) Pocket Hole jig and construction. Although there are many ways to make cabinets and face frames, I have found that pocket hole screws have really made making them easier. Just remember, coarse threads for soft woods, fine thread for hard woods, and I find the square head easier to drive correctly than the Phillips type. My Kreg pocket hole jig is mounted on a chunk of plywood that I can clamp down. The thing makes a lot of sawdust so dust collection is a good idea. I also find that with careful, exact 90 degree end cuts to the wood, the pocket hole approach produces absolutely square cabinets and face frames. You’ll want a couple of face clamps and a Kreg right angle clamp if you use pocket hole joinery on cases. There are many helpful videos on this jig and it is not very expensive as tools go.

13) Make a table saw sled (lots of YouTube videos on how to) for perfect 90 degree cuts on your table saw. I had a little more money than time, so I bought the sled Rockler makes that has a swinging fence and a very precise angle scale. I love that thing and set up a special shelf right next to my table saw to store it and keep it flat. Cross cuts on the sled are wonderfully exact and it prevents most tear out, the ragged or splintered area at the end of a cut. The sled is also a much safer way to cut short pieces as well. You set the sled to a precise 90 or 45 angle using a drafting square.

Most saws come with a miter gauge, but I prefer one of the precision gauges. I have an Osborne gauge I really like, but many here like Incra’s gauge. Precision is important with gauges.

You will read a LOT about jigs here and in your books and videos. Jigs, accurate T squares, a good straightedge are all incredibly useful for producing good work. The more I venture into really good hard wood construction, the more I appreciate how jigs produce accurate results without wasting expensive wood through mis-cuts.

14) I had a lot of problems with tear out at first, but most of that stopped when I started using a sacrificial backup block to push the last bit of a piece through the router or saw. I often use square pieces of MDF (medium density fiberboard) because it is cheap and stays flat. When it gets torn up, I just cut off a chunk and use what’s left. Really helps! You can do the same with any piece by putting a backer board behind where the cut goes--you cut through the piece first, the backer last. You may also want to use feather boards to hold boards in correct alignment to the fence and blade or bit.

Zero Clearance Inserts for the table saw: On the table saw, buy or make blank inserts to make zero clearance inserts (see YouTube for how to do it), this really helps make great, tear-out free cuts. I also found that I wanted to push that last quarter inch through the bit too fast, now I feed at a steady pace all through the cut.

15) Clamps: The joke is you can never have too many clamps. The ones I use most are about $3 each at Harbor Freight, about 9 inch F clamps (they look like an F). I have 18 of them. The same source has longer versions up to 24 inches and I keep 4 to 6 of the 18 and 24 inch models. I have four sets of two of 24 to 60 inch (Jet) parallel clamps for making really square cabinets and other items where holding things square for glue up is important. The better the quality of bar clamps, the thicker and stronger the bar will be. I’ve all but given up on plastic clamps, but have a few that look like scissors for lightly holding things together or down. Depending on what you’re making, a few wooden hand screw clamps could be useful, including holding small parts for safer routing. I recently added a couple of special steel C clamps that have a 12 inch open throat. Very handy item!

16) Hand planes and hand tools: Learning to use these is something of an art, as is proper sharpening and setting of their blades. There are lots of woodworkers who really love working with hand tools, most will suggest you buy used and clean and tune them up--which is actually quite fun. I prefer just to buy new and really like the Wood River V3 brand for its quality and acceptable price.

Chisels are important particularly if you are making furniture. Sharpening chisels is a basic skill involving many ultra fine grits of sandpaper, ultra flat surfaces, maybe diamond grit sharpening stones—arcane stuff, but anything less than a razor sharp chisel is pretty useless. Don’t scrimp on chisels, cheap ones get dull fast. Look up sharpening methods on YouTube, it takes patience but not much money to work sharp. I recently bought a diamond sharpening device with diamond dust imbedded in a nickel steel plate. It has small cut out ovals so the metal grit doesn't clog the diamond surface. Use these sparingly and use one of the specialty diamond sharpening lubricants with it. I use this for quick sharpening touch ups, just 4-5 strokes will do. It’s a little easier to use than the sand paper method, which I save for major sharpening tasks. The most important thing is to flatten the back of the first inch or two of the chisel. Unless that is flat, you can’t sharpen a chisel or plane blade (iron) accurately.

The one plane every shop should have is a small block plane. These have so many uses that’s it is hard to list them all, but they are really great for trimming up ends of workpieces, quickly rounding over edges without having to set up a router, fine fitting the length of a board. New ones can be had in decent quality for about $100 bucks and up. All planes require being tuned up before they are any good. You can look this process up on YouTube. Cheap block planes are passable if you really work them over first, but most won’t hold an edge very well and some are not milled accurately and will never cut right.

17) If you have a dedicated shop space, take the time and trouble to insulate it. You will enjoy working in it much more if you're not roasting or freezing. I installed a middle sized window AC unit through a shop shed wall for relief from our desert summer and it is now even more of a pleasure to be out there. Insulation also holds in heat during winter. A couple of heaters bring the temp up, but just one keeps it comfortable after that. Cold fingers are clumsy, not good around spinning blades!

Finally, Stick suggests that you use the Forum’s archives when you have questions. There is a wealth of answers to any questions you might have. He also cautions about using one word search terms, which can return massive amounts of information. Here’s the link: https://archive.org/

Woodworking is not necessarily a cheap hobby. Wood can be costly, so are decent tools, And there's hardware, stuff for jigs, dust collection and on and on as you get going. My good wood supplier is 60 miles away, so I often work in decent local pine and plywood with as many layers as I can find. I found some decent plywood at HD. Before long you will hear how superior Baltic Birch is to the best of HD ply, but you have to ferret out a decent source. Chinese made birch ply is generally no match for the real stuff, which, when you cut it shows no voids inside. To me the 60 miles is a small price to pay to work with the good ply.

This has run pretty long, but the suggestions represent a LOT of trial and error, and might save you a few bucks over time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Gentleman, I have never received such a welcome to a group before.

I apologize for the briefness of my response. Phone just ate my post.

Work 12's at night and am busy on the weekends. Scraping out garage time when I can.

Looks like a lot of you fellas are retired. Lucky punks.

Will follow up better, later.

Charley, Tom, Otis: was working on a response that I lost. Need to get some sleep. Will follow up later.

Space stuff since there seems to be interest:

Apollo is one of our greatest achievements. Have found tooling kits and fixturing from Apollo in the crib at work. Gives me chills to touch it.

Made so many tubing connectors for the shuttle. Was a nasty grade of stainless or Inconel. Was running Citizen Swiss machines then.

There are quite a few things on the ISS I've cut on. I take great pride in anything that has NASA on it.
 

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Roy,
I was about 20 when I worked there and will never forget the day an engineer walked in with what looked like a solid chunk of metal. Then he stretched it out several feet and proceded to explain it was titanium cemented into an expandable honeycomb. He added that it had nearly the same strength as a solid beam and was being used for the major, curved beams on the various stages.

If you have never been to the Apollo and Saturn exhibit at Canaveral, you should go. It is filled with examples of the massive number of extraordinary inventions that program provided. I was there when the Grissom fire occurred and it was amazing to see how they tracked and tested everything, down to individual nuts and bolts.

The pictures are from the display. One of the most amazing things to me is the first stage engines. 7 million hp, never a failure. What an amazing thing.

I am curious about which facility you worked at, and what portion you worked on?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Had a manager that called Titanium "god metal." Due to its reputation, companies use it in their products when they don't need to. TiN coat is probably the most overused since it is so cheap.

Ti6Al4V is the most commonly used alloy. You find it in military and NASA stuff all the time. It is also the primary medical implant metal since it is so inert after anodize/passivation. Just a little heavier than aluminum with the strength of stainless. Can be hardened.

Titanium cuts a lot easier than you would think. Would much rather cut it than 316 or 304 SS or Inconel. Just have to use high chip loads. Get in get, get out, otherwise it work hardens.

Fun to burn a fine chip of it. Burns like magnesium but is harder to light.

Never been to Canaveral but need to go someday. The Saturn is a massive beast. Wish we'd get back to cowboy space exploration and run some risk again. The astronauts don't mind risk. We need to get back out there.

Space and Rocket center beats the Air and Space Museum in D.C. They have so many neat exhibits. Our Saturn had been restored and looks great. Remember plants growing out of it when I was a kid.

Never worked directly for NASA but Marshall is a big part of Rocket City. I've worked at half the shops in Huntsville. Only way to get a real raise in this town is to change jobs. Been at my current employer for 6 years which is my longest stint anywhere. Corporations lack loyalty and don't provide regular raised anymore.

If I get cycle time tonight, I'll respond to y'all's other posts.
 
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