Input on primer type for cedar/plywood project

2796 Views 22 Replies 8 Participants Last post by Stick486, Aug 10, 2020

ABear

Discussion Starter · Aug 8, 2020

I recently built a garden gate/garden door, it was built out of new Cedar (WRC) and the top part is ACX Exterior Plywood. Very similar to the attached picture, the round top was routed out of plywood, the rest is new cedar.

Based on my reading, an oil based primer for the Cedar and a latex based primer for the plywood is the recommended finish (topcoat will be exterior latex paint).

I was wondering if I could use just latex primer on the entire door. I do know why oil primer is recommended (stain blocking properties) but I have also read oil is a giant pain in the neck, VOC's, cleanup mess, harder to work with, mildew issues, harder to get good results.

I have been reading some contractor painter forums and at least one suggestion said latex was OK on new cedar wood.

Here is one of the quotes I have read:

On wood siding I traditionally always use exterior oil primer with latex top coats. If it is new wood then I think latex may be a better choice, if wood is old or previously painted then I think oil is the preferred choice. But that is only my opinion.

I have tried both oil and latex exterior primers and haven't seen one out perform the other in exterior applications. I do think that cheap primers don't perform as well.

Thoughts? Anyone use latex primer on new Cedar? Recommendations on product?

Thank you for any comments or opinions.

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Herb Stoops

· #2 · Aug 8, 2020

My experience is that new ceder tends to bleed through latex paint, so it need to be sealed before painting. Might take 2 coats over the primer to eliminate that. Oil based paint over oil based primer, latex paint over latex primer.
HErb

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DaninVan

· #3 · Aug 8, 2020

Oil primer on everything. In fact you can use waterborne coatings over oil primers, but not the reverse.
My experience here in the PNW is that waterbased coatings are a miserable failure for exterior use. Especially on horizontal surfaces like railing caps. Waste of money on decks and stairs.

Just my opinion

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Bstrom

· #4 · Aug 8, 2020

DaninVan said:
Oil primer on everything. In fact you can use waterborne coatings over oil primers, but not the reverse.
My experience here in the PNW is that waterbased coatings are a miserable failure for exterior use. Especially on horizontal surfaces like railing caps. Waste of money on decks and stairs.

Just my opinion

I’ll be doing just that combination on my deck railings - oil primer and semigloss exterior concrete block grade latex for color.

Sorry you got it so rough in the PNW - awful lot of rain up there, huh?

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DaninVan

· #5 · Aug 8, 2020

Yup...been raining off and on for the past three days...in the middle of August!
Adding insult to injury the &*&*&^%%$! that rule over us have put us on Stage 3 water conservation as of today. Pretty sure no one is watering and the lakes (watershed) are full.
https://www.scrd.ca/files/File/Admi...E 3 Water Use Restrictions - News Release.pdf
This nonsense has been going on for 25+ years without a solution being implemented. Not that they haven't spent millions on studies ad nauseum.

Herb Stoops

· #6 · Aug 8, 2020

I haven't had that problem with the latex paint outside. My 2 story cape cod house had latex house paint on it for 43 years none ever peeled , it got painted every 5 years. I used latex house paint on outdoor furniture and it held up better than the oil based stain on the sun deck. so when I had to replace the sundeck I used house paint and solved that problem. I always bought the best name brand paint.
Herb

Reactions: 1

ABear

Discussion Starter · #7 · Aug 8, 2020

Thanks to all who commented. Based on the comments I will use the oil base primer, that being said, see below.

Here is another example of what seems to me to be contradictory guidance (Sherwin-Williams/Exterior Oil-Based
Wood Primer application):

SURFACE PREPARATION

On woods that present potential tannin bleeding, such as redwood and cedar, Exterior Oil-Based Wood Primer can be
used. Care must be taken to determine if tannins will be activated by the solvent in the coating. To test for bleeding, coat a 4 foot by 4 foot section with the primer. If no bleeding is evident within 4 hours, proceed with complete priming. If bleeding occurs,use Exterior Latex Wood Primer.

https://www.sherwin-williams.com/document/PDS/en/035777658284/

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Bstrom

· #8 · Aug 9, 2020

Herb Stoops said:
I haven't had that problem with the latex paint outside. My 2 story cape cod house had latex house paint on it for 43 years none ever peeled , it got painted every 5 years. I used latex house paint on outdoor furniture and it held up better than the oil based stain on the sun deck. so when I had to replace the sundeck I used house paint and solved that problem. I always bought the best name brand paint.
Herb

This is an obvious case of where paint quality can be depended on if we make the investment. The big box stores have all but decimated the value of latex with their lines, but the private brands do the job remarkably well. Worth paying for...

Herb Stoops

· #9 · Aug 9, 2020

Bstrom said:
This is an obvious case of where paint quality can be depended on if we make the investment. The big box stores have all but decimated the value of latex with their lines, but the private brands do the job remarkably well. Worth paying for...

Years ago when I couldn't afford to best paint, I did buy the generic brand and it didn't last 2 years, And before I could paint over it I spent a lot of time scraping, patching and sanding prep before I started to paint. That made me a believer in Name Brands.
Herb

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DaninVan

· #10 · Aug 9, 2020

"That made me a believer in Name Brands."
-Herb

I've called (Exterior) 'Latex' paint every name in the book...

Herb Stoops

· #11 · Aug 9, 2020

DaninVan said:
"That made me a believer in Name Brands."
-Herb

I've called (Exterior) 'Latex' paint every name in the book...

I think that the exterior paint I used was Acrilic Latex exterior paint, it was water clean up.
Herb

DesertRatTom

· #12 · Aug 9, 2020 (Edited)

I started using KILZ for stuff like this and it seemed to last pretty well on exteriors. All my exterior doors have a layer of it and they have held up pretty well for many years. Takes a long time for it to dry completely. I think it will be very important to seal the end grain wherever you can with a couple of coats. That's where deterioration starts on my outdoor projects.

I haven't used it yet, but what about that deck coating you roll on that's extremely thick? And I'm with Herb on cheapo paint. Not worth using.

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ABear

Discussion Starter · #13 · Aug 9, 2020

Thanks for all the added comments and yes, I learned long ago, paint and stain products is one thing you can not cheap out on. I have had good luck with Sherwin Williams products personally.

I avoid all big box stores for paint, stain, similar products.

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DesertRatTom

· #14 · Aug 9, 2020

ABear said:
... I have had good luck with Sherwin Williams products personally.

I just noticed yesterday that we have a Sherwin Williams paint factory not far from here. Back in my business reporter days, I toured one of their factories down near the coast. It was incredibly clean first of all, and they were mixing batches of paint in huge vats that were formed of concrete sunk in the floor. They have a local retail store a mile or so from the factory. Looks like the new plant up here is using large tanks. Paint formulas have changed radically in the 40 years since.

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ABear

Discussion Starter · #15 · Aug 9, 2020

While we are on the subject I wanted to add a couple comments.

While doing my research, I found a lot of recommendations for Glidden Gripper primer, glowing reviews from professionals. I then found out Glidden Gripper is now PPG Gripper, claimed to be the same as the old Glidden product. My reading indicates the new PPG product is actually a different formulation and is not as good as the old product. I will put a link at the bottom to one of the many threads on the subject.

One product in particular that has exceeded my expectations is Sherwin-Williams Woodscape Solid Acrylic Stain, highly recommended (and I found this product through contractor paint blogs praising the product).

Teardrops n Tiny Travel Trailers ? View topic - Glidden Gripper vs PPG gripper

Reactions: 1

DesertRatTom

· #16 · Aug 9, 2020

A couple of decades ago, I got hold of some aircraft paint that went on then aluminum bodies. It wasn't so pretty, but then I'd brushed it on. Sprayed, it is probably a nicer finish. If it will stick to a plane flying near mach 1, it will probably stay on that gate forever. Turns out that Sherwin-Williams makes something called Jet Flex for that purpose. An email to the company might turn up a solution and dealer.

Herb Stoops

· #17 · Aug 9, 2020

Sherwinn Williams and Benjamin Moore are the good ones here. I haven't seen Gliddon for awhile.

Heerb

Dejure

· #18 · Aug 10, 2020 (Edited)

Back in my painting days, I liked the oils for the simple reason they dried slower. Because they dried slower, they soaked into the wood a bit, giving them a bit better grip. We'd spay over that with latex, once you could touch the primer and it didn't stick to your finger (it could still be tacky though).

I've used the so called self priming paints and think they are pure garbage for exterior work. More so if the temp is above seven degrees farenhite, which would cause it to dry too quickly, resulting in minimal adhesion.

I love Kilz, but it's a quick drying primer too, so is better suited for interior applications. I'd take a cheap, oil based primer over it any day for the same reason I noted above.

Note that oil base paints, or at least primers, seal better than water based for stains. How many of us have done a beautiful paint job in a kitchen, bath or elsewhere, only to notice bleed through from smoke and such down the road. Latex is porous and that old smoke will come right back through it, once the steam from that bath or the noodles hits it. Of course, that's why KILZ, with shellac, works so well at addressing such problems.

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Herb Stoops

· #19 · Aug 10, 2020

The painters on the job always used a shellac based primer to seal crayon, sharpy ball point ink marks before painting over them.
Herb

Stick486

· #20 · Aug 10, 2020

Herb Stoops said:
The painters on the job always used a shellac based primer to seal crayon, sharpy ball point ink marks before painting over them.
Herb

white glue works too...

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