Joe,

A great grab..... I am green with envy

Better tie the dog to a wall

 

Congrats there Joe! Wish I had room for one of those "suckers"

Corey

 

Hi Joe

It's always nice to get a new toy and I sure like your new one, you didn't say which one you got ? model number ?

Bj

 

Hi Joe

It's always nice to get a new toy and I sure like your new one, you didn't say which one you got ? model number ?

Bj

100A....Down the road I'll get the canister as an add on if I need it. Did get the 1 micron bag however.

 

Very good!

I agree with Corey & Bob!

 

Question

What is the benefit if any to wiring it for 220..I have a few 220 outlets...Just not sure of any benefit over 110...0r really 115V...

Just a matter of swaping a few wires on the Jet

 

Hi

It will cost you less to run it and it will run a bit better on 220 volts
If you have the outlets set to go do it...


Bj

---------

Question

What is the benefit if any to wiring it for 220..I have a few 220 outlets...Just not sure of any benefit over 110...0r really 115V...

Just a matter of swaping a few wires on the Jet

 

Nice purchase Joe. I think you will enjoy your new DC. I know your lungs will.

 

BJ
I don't think that it will cost less money

1 HP = 746 Watts

Watt = Voltage x Amperes

So if the voltage is 110V, we shall need 6.78 Amperes to produce 1 HP (110V x 6.78A = 746W)
But if the voltage is 220V, we shall need 3.39 Amperes to produce 1 HP (220V x 3.39A = 746W)

So, the same motor, hooked to 220V will need 1/2 of the Amperage to produce the same HP

But, the Electric company, like all the others companies, loves money and they will not let you to benefit from 220V.
They charge you according to Kilowatt per Hour and in both cases (110V or 220V) you are consuming the same Kilowatts (0.746).

Lablover
First, I wish you to enjoy your new DC, I don't have space for such a monster...

I believe that you know that when say "1.5HP", they are, well, not telling all the truth because there are many ways to measure HP and the law is very loose, I would multiply this number by 0.6 (or 60%, average electric motor efficiency) to get close to the real HP (but, we want to sell, don't we...).

In Europe, the motor power is indicated by Watts, not HP, my TS is 2500W so I know that the consumption is around 11A (2500W: 230V) and the "HP" will be 3.35HP but, the motor efficiency is about 60% so the real HP is only 2HP

The benefit of using 220V is that, you don't need thick wires as for 110V and the motor will run cooler because less Amperes are flowing through the motor.

A good example it the Bosch 4000 TS that was advertised as "15A motor, 4HP" well, simple calculation 15A x 110V = 1500W
1500W : 746 = 2HP (and 60% of it is 1.2)
God knows about which 4HP they are talking about...but, we want to sell, don't we...

niki

 

wow, lots to absorb niki. Thanks for the detailed explination. I do lnow one thing..I hoocked it up to my already dusty tablesaw and it yanked every bit of dust and chips out of it. I was pretty excited. Now I have to decide if I want to run 4" all over the shop.....Or a 6" main then 4" drops

I love it

Joe

 

Niki saved me from wearing out my finger tips on the keyboard, he is of course correct on all points. Once again Bob forgot to add water to his whiskey!

 

Loblove

I'm glad that you are happy with your new DC, at least you are not disappointed from something that you paid for.

About 6" and 4" piping...
I will assume that you don't know so much of Aerodynamics (and you do, I apologize)

When the air flows over a surface (in this case it's your pipes), the nearest layer to the surface has zero velocity.
The second layer has some higher velocity, the third, higher and so on until the air gains the "free stream velocity" (in this case, the "free air velocity" is at the center of your pipe).

This layer, that the air velocity changes from zero to the free stream velocity, is called "Boundary layer", it's turbulent and causes "loss of momentum" or in simple words; it slows down the air flow in the pipes.

Just for the example, lets assume that the thickness of the Boundary layer is 1/4" (that is very close to reality) and it will be 1/4" over any surface (or if you like - in a 1" pipe and in 6" pipe the Boundary layer has the same thickness).
Now just imagine that you are using 1/2" diameter pipe...1/4" around the pipe is the boundary layer with reduced velocity and you shall have only the center 1/4" diameter with "free stream airflow" (or the highest velocity).

Now, increase the pipe diameter to 1", the Boundary layer is still 1/4" but the free stream diameter is now 3/4" and the more you increase the pipe diameter, the more free stream area you get.

When the surface (or the pipe) is long, the Boundary layer becomes more turbulent and thicker, so keep the piping as short as you can. I'm using a shop-vac (R2D2) for the TS and it's removing almost all the dust, I use a 2" hose but only 3' long.

Another factor that you have to consider is the "elbows" or T-connection, try to use minimum "turns" and if you have to (normally), use moderate elbow, say 30° turn or less.

What happens when the flow is forced to turn at 90°, it does not want to turn but wants to continue at the same direction and "cavities" are created, the airflow over a turn is very turbulent and creates a lot of drag or "Momentum loss" and in total reduces the airflow velocity.
Of course, if you have unlimited HP to overcome all those "Momentum losses" (or Duct losses), no problem but, you have only "advertised" 1.5HP so better to keep the losses to minimum.

Wow, that was long but, I hope that it will help you to organize your pipes.

Harry
Next time I'll wait a little bit more time and save me the typing (with two fingers...)

Regards
niki

 

Hi lablover:

Per Table 45 in the Ontario Electrical Safety Code (same table in the Canadian Electrical Code and table M430-148 in the USA's National Electrical Code), Single Phase Motor Full Load Current for 1 HP is 16 Amps at 115V and 8 Amps for 230 Volts.

Inrush Current will be several times these values. So, the inrush current for 8 Amps will be half that of the 16 Amps. Less lamp dimming and other nuisance effects is achieved by going 230V.

Now in Table 2 of the CEC and OESC:
8 Amps requires a minimum of 14 AWG conductor, three conductor (ex. NMD-90 14/3)
16 Amps requires a minimum of 12 AWG conductor, two conductor (ex. NMD-90 12/2)
(Copper wire assumed. Heavier gauge for aluminum wire.)

These gauge values assume short cable runs from distribution panel to "point of utilisation" (motor terminals.) For runs over 10 metres (33 feet), the voltage drop calculations should be performed to see whether heavier-gauge conductors are needed. In the OESC and CEC, this is Rule 8-102.

Switches for turning the motor on/off need to be properly size, as do any plug/socket:
For 8 Amps, standard 230V/15A components are acceptable.
For 16 Amps, one needs to step up to a minimum of 20A components for switches and plugs/sockets. (80 percent rule)

Personally, I would go with the 230V wiring, if possible. Less impact on other loads connected to your (main) distribution panel. Also, less likely to trip the main fuse/breaker of the main distribution panel.

Hope this helps,
Cassie

 

Hi niki

"It's fine to disagree with other members as long as you respect their opinions."
MIKE
Senior Moderator


In the states when you run 220 1 phz. you need to use bigger wire size ..
In the states we use 3phz. to save money and almost all comm.building, companys do this.

-------------------

BJ
I don't think that it will cost less money

1 HP = 746 Watts

Watt = Voltage x Amperes

So if the voltage is 110V, we shall need 6.78 Amperes to produce 1 HP (110V x 6.78A = 746W)
But if the voltage is 220V, we shall need 3.39 Amperes to produce 1 HP (220V x 3.39A = 746W)

So, the same motor, hooked to 220V will need 1/2 of the Amperage to produce the same HP

But, the Electric company, like all the others companies, loves money and they will not let you to benefit from 220V.
They charge you according to Kilowatt per Hour and in both cases (110V or 220V) you are consuming the same Kilowatts (0.746).

Lablover
First, I wish you to enjoy your new DC, I don't have space for such a monster...

I believe that you know that when say "1.5HP", they are, well, not telling all the truth because there are many ways to measure HP and the law is very loose, I would multiply this number by 0.6 (or 60%, average electric motor efficiency) to get close to the real HP (but, we want to sell, don't we...).

In Europe, the motor power is indicated by Watts, not HP, my TS is 2500W so I know that the consumption is around 11A (2500W: 230V) and the "HP" will be 3.35HP but, the motor efficiency is about 60% so the real HP is only 2HP

The benefit of using 220V is that, you don't need thick wires as for 110V and the motor will run cooler because less Amperes are flowing through the motor.

A good example it the Bosch 4000 TS that was advertised as "15A motor, 4HP" well, simple calculation 15A x 110V = 1500W
1500W : 746 = 2HP (and 60% of it is 1.2)
God knows about which 4HP they are talking about...but, we want to sell, don't we...

niki

 

In addition to what Cassie just told you there is a real world advantage in going with 220, it will cost you less. In theory it should cost the same, but the way our meters work is by sensing the current draw. The bottom line is the meter sees an unbalanced 16 amps or a balanced 8 amps, get the picture?

 

Hi niki

"It's fine to disagree with other members as long as you respect their opinions."
MIKE
Senior Moderator


In the states when you run 220 1 phz. you need to use bigger wire size ..
In the states we use 3phz. to save money and almost all comm.building, companys do this.

-------------------

Sorry Bob/ Mike but this is a case of scientific fact not opinion.

 

Hi Harry

But Harry you guys still drive on the wrong side of the road and drive upside down...down under.. and do most things backwards

Bj

 

Niki..Thanks for taking the time

Update:::

I wired the 220..>Runs like a champ. Niki..WOW, lots of reading and I'm almost asshamed to say I'm still confused about the pipe size.

Lets say my shop size is 20x20. I was going to run one main line diag or accross the shop then run 4" pipe from that to the tools.

Now, If I'm reading your notes correct...Maybe thats not a good idea..Bigger pipe..longer run..Loss of flow??? Not sure I got that part right.

4" would be easier for everything. One main 4" pipe the 4" to all the tools..say 3-4 big chip makers.

Darn...Now I'm really confused. I can say I did hook it to the new router table and WOW...Ran some dovetails etc and not a chip to be found in the cabinet as well as on the top.

Joe

BTW..I appreciate all the help

 

In addition to what Cassie just told you there is a real world advantage in going with 220, it will cost you less. In theory it should cost the same, but the way our meters work is by sensing the current draw. The bottom line is the meter sees 16 amps or 8 amps, get the picture?

Are you sure Mike, I always thought that the meters read kilowatt hours not current.

 

Wow, what a bunch of good information. Here is my two cents. Don't confuse direct current formulae with those that apply to phase driven (AC) current. They are not the same. Let's make this simple. In my area using 110V and 14 Ga. copper wire requires a 15 Amp breaker, under normal conditions. All kitchen wiring is required to have 12 Ga. copper wire fused with a 20 Amp breaker, because of the high current draw of appliances, excluding the electric stove, which requires 220V, 40 amp and 6-8ga. copper wire. For a shop, with nice power tools, 220V is the way to go and 10 Ga. copper wire should suffice. You can split the 220 for tools that will only handle 110V.

Joe

 

Hi BJ

I'm sorry but I disagree with you, the thickness of the wire to be used depends solely on the Amperes that it has to carry.

Please have a look at this site, Its the "American wire gauge", roll down and you will see a table, you will see that the voltage is not mentioned at all. the only thing that changes with 230V is the wire insulation that have to be better than the 110V.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

In a sense, Electricity, Hydraulic, Pneumatics etc. are Energy and behave the same.

The Voltage is the electric "Pressure" and the Ampere is the electric "Flow"

Please let me give you an example;
You have a water pressure source that can give a pressure of 30 PSI.
Now, take a hose with face area of 1²" and check how many Gallons per minute (GPM) this hose can transfer, lets say that it was 5 Gallons. Now, change the hose to 2²" area and measure again, you will see that much more GPM...actually double, with the same 30 PSI.

It's the same with electricity, If you have a "110V of Pressure" and you have to operate a machine that requires "5A of flow" you need small area of " Wire or Hose".
But if you want to operate a machine that requires "15A of flow", you shall need bigger area "Wire or Hose".

If you increase the "Voltage=Pressure" to "220V= PSI" you shall need half of the "Ampere or flow" to get the same level of work (HP) from the machine.

As Joe said, for the kitchen you use 220V, 40A and AWG 6 or 8, not because of the 220V but, because of the 40A. You could use 110V for the electric stove but, it will require 80A to give you the same "work" and if you supply 440V, you would need only 20A to get the same "Work" from the stove.

I'm sorry but even in USA the "Electric Bill" is calculated as per Kilowatt/hour.
Copy/Past from the website:
"Electricity bills, however, are frequent and unavoidable. The dollar amount charged each month is a function of the price per kilowatthour (kWh) and the amount of kilowatthours consumed; other add-ons to your bill include State and local taxes and costs for maintaining reliability."
http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/brochure/electricity/electricity.html

Respectfully
niki

 

Niki,

Thank you for the 'simple' and clear description...

It's so much easier to understand when we have a good teacher.

 

Hi Joe (Lablover)

Sorry, for the somewhat late reply but all this electricity...

I'm far from being an expert it DC systems so I cannot advise you if to use 4" or 6" and I hope that somebody more knowledgeable than me will pop in.

I can give you a general guide on how to get maximum efficiency from your system;
Keep the piping as short as possible
Avoid sharp turns of the pipes and hoses
Use smooth inner surface pipes as much as you can
Keep all the unused outlets closed tight
Check and clean the filter(s) frequently

Some interesting point;
If you will close all your inlets, you will here the motor increasing it's RPM, almost screaming.
Many people thinks that they are going to "cook" the motor, the opposite is the true, what happen is that, because there is no airflow through the Fan or Impeller, it's easier for the Fan to turn and it increases it's RPM and if you will check the Amperes, you will see a drop.
The same will occur when the filter is clogged.

Best Regards and enjoy your new DC
niki

 

Thanks Niki....Outstanding!

Joe

 

Hi niki

Let me see if I got this right ? VAC SYSTEM

If I push the clutch in on my truck and take the load off it and let it run at the same RPM or higher than it was running with the load it will Not damage the eng. if I don't get the RPM's to come back down.

ALL homes in the states can have 220/240 volts but can't have any more than that.
And all hvy. duty app. must be wire for 220 and use a 30,40,50,etc. amp breaker the norm at the load box with a 200 amp. service the norm.
And must be wired to a code and if it's not you can not get power turned on..


Bj