[cbsjoez1935]

Wow, what a bunch of good information. Here is my two cents. Don't confuse direct current formulae with those that apply to phase driven (AC) current. They are not the same. Let's make this simple. In my area using 110V and 14 Ga. copper wire requires a 15 Amp breaker, under normal conditions. All kitchen wiring is required to have 12 Ga. copper wire fused with a 20 Amp breaker, because of the high current draw of appliances, excluding the electric stove, which requires 220V, 40 amp and 6-8ga. copper wire. For a shop, with nice power tools, 220V is the way to go and 10 Ga. copper wire should suffice. You can split the 220 for tools that will only handle 110V.

Joe

 

[simplenik]

Hi BJ

I'm sorry but I disagree with you, the thickness of the wire to be used depends solely on the Amperes that it has to carry.

Please have a look at this site, Its the "American wire gauge", roll down and you will see a table, you will see that the voltage is not mentioned at all. the only thing that changes with 230V is the wire insulation that have to be better than the 110V.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

In a sense, Electricity, Hydraulic, Pneumatics etc. are Energy and behave the same.

The Voltage is the electric "Pressure" and the Ampere is the electric "Flow"

Please let me give you an example;
You have a water pressure source that can give a pressure of 30 PSI.
Now, take a hose with face area of 1²" and check how many Gallons per minute (GPM) this hose can transfer, lets say that it was 5 Gallons. Now, change the hose to 2²" area and measure again, you will see that much more GPM...actually double, with the same 30 PSI.

It's the same with electricity, If you have a "110V of Pressure" and you have to operate a machine that requires "5A of flow" you need small area of " Wire or Hose".
But if you want to operate a machine that requires "15A of flow", you shall need bigger area "Wire or Hose".

If you increase the "Voltage=Pressure" to "220V= PSI" you shall need half of the "Ampere or flow" to get the same level of work (HP) from the machine.

As Joe said, for the kitchen you use 220V, 40A and AWG 6 or 8, not because of the 220V but, because of the 40A. You could use 110V for the electric stove but, it will require 80A to give you the same "work" and if you supply 440V, you would need only 20A to get the same "Work" from the stove.

I'm sorry but even in USA the "Electric Bill" is calculated as per Kilowatt/hour.
Copy/Past from the website:
"Electricity bills, however, are frequent and unavoidable. The dollar amount charged each month is a function of the price per kilowatthour (kWh) and the amount of kilowatthours consumed; other add-ons to your bill include State and local taxes and costs for maintaining reliability."
http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/brochure/electricity/electricity.html

Respectfully
niki

 

[Joe Lyddon]

Niki,

Thank you for the 'simple' and clear description...

It's so much easier to understand when we have a good teacher.

 

[simplenik]

Hi Joe (Lablover)

Sorry, for the somewhat late reply but all this electricity...

I'm far from being an expert it DC systems so I cannot advise you if to use 4" or 6" and I hope that somebody more knowledgeable than me will pop in.

I can give you a general guide on how to get maximum efficiency from your system;
Keep the piping as short as possible
Avoid sharp turns of the pipes and hoses
Use smooth inner surface pipes as much as you can
Keep all the unused outlets closed tight
Check and clean the filter(s) frequently

Some interesting point;
If you will close all your inlets, you will here the motor increasing it's RPM, almost screaming.
Many people thinks that they are going to "cook" the motor, the opposite is the true, what happen is that, because there is no airflow through the Fan or Impeller, it's easier for the Fan to turn and it increases it's RPM and if you will check the Amperes, you will see a drop.
The same will occur when the filter is clogged.

Best Regards and enjoy your new DC
niki

 

[lablover]

Thanks Niki....Outstanding!

Joe

 

[bobj3]

Hi niki

Let me see if I got this right ? VAC SYSTEM

If I push the clutch in on my truck and take the load off it and let it run at the same RPM or higher than it was running with the load it will Not damage the eng. if I don't get the RPM's to come back down.

ALL homes in the states can have 220/240 volts but can't have any more than that.
And all hvy. duty app. must be wire for 220 and use a 30,40,50,etc. amp breaker the norm at the load box with a 200 amp. service the norm.
And must be wired to a code and if it's not you can not get power turned on..


Bj

 

[Cassandra]

I'm sorry but even in USA the "Electric Bill" is calculated as per Kilowatt/hour.
Copy/Past from the website:
"Electricity bills, however, are frequent and unavoidable. The dollar amount charged each month is a function of the price per kilowatthour (kWh) and the amount of kilowatthours consumed; other add-ons to your bill include State and local taxes and costs for maintaining reliability."
http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/brochure/electricity/electricity.html

Respectfully
niki

Hi niki:

A bit of a slip-up in your statement.

In North America (USA and Canada), electricity bills are based on kilowatthours. as you stated. This is not kilowatts divided by hours but is kilowatts times hours. A kilowatthour is not equal to a kilowatt/hour.

Now, for the others: how accurate is the meter on the wall? Depends on the construction of the meter. These meters must measure both the current and the voltage to determine the kilowatts being used. Then the meter sums the kilowatts across the span of time to arrive at the kilowatthours used.

The meters should accommodate an imbalance on the two live wires, without errors in calculating the kilowatts. However, this is neither death nor taxes; thus, the imbalance might cause a misreading. Going the 230V route ensures that the imbalance is not increased by the load.

Basically, the meter integrates the product of voltage and current with respect to time (for you Calculus lovers.) Energy is the first integral, with respect to time, of v(t)*i(t), which is time-varying Power. Energy is Power times Time.

Cassie

 

[simplenik]

BJ
I'm not sure that I understood the Truck thingy but, take your truck a go to some good uphill.

Climb the hill on the first gear and watch the coolant temperature.
Now, make the same on 3rd or 4th gear and watch the coolant temp.

In the case of 1st gear, you were running the engine on high RPM but the coolant temp will remain low (some increase).

On the 3rd/4th gear you run your engine at low RPM but the coolant temp will increase significantly (if not over-scale).

Cassie
"Kilowatt/hour" and "kilowatthour" are the same just written in different way, please have a look here
http://sigma.ontologyportal.org:4010/sigma/Browse.jsp?kb=SUMO&term=KilowattHour

And here
http://www.hydroquebec.com/residential/energywise/kilowattheure.html

It means that if on your electric instrument/apliance/machine is written 1000 Watts (or 1 KW) and you operate it for one our, you will pay for 1 Kilowatthour without any difference if it uses 110V or 220V.

Or, if Watts or Kilowats are not stated but only Amperes and it written 9.09 Ampere, and you operate it for one hour, you will pay the same amount because 110V x 9.09A = 1000W (or 1KW). Please have a look here
http://www.hydroquebec.com/residential/energywise/pop_outil_calcul.html

But the best explanation is here
http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/cost.html


From http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/meters.html
Does my meter charge me for volts or for watts? Do higher voltage appliances cost more to run? -- Various readers
The electric company charges you for watt-hours, not volts. To figure volts you use the fomula Volts x Amps = Watts. A device that runs on 240V will use half as many amps as an identical device that runs at 120V, so the wattage will be the same -- and so will the cost.

The kinds of appliances that use 240V tend to be energy hogs, like air conditioners and electric clothes dryers, so running those appliances will cost you. It's not because 240V costs more, it's because you're running energy-gobbling appliances.

niki

 

[bobj3]

Hi niki

I will agree with most of what you said BUT we can't buy a 110volt
air conditioners,electric clothes dryers,stove,hot water tanks, etc. in the states

So we are stuck with 220/240 volt appliances.. is the standard in Japan 220/240 volt ? for most appliances and elec.equipment. ?
If that's the case why ?

Bj

 

[simplenik]

Hi BJ

You cannot buy some appliances on 110V just because you like it in the "American standard", what I mean is that, Americans like everything to be "King size", big and strong.
The "door by door" refrigerator can store food for a baseball team for one month, the kitchen stove is big like for a restaurant etc. so, they need a lot of Amperage...

In Japan, the standard Voltage is 100V and most of the appliances are working on 100V but they are half or less in size than in USA. The only thing that works on 200V is the Air-condition units and I remember that I was connecting some of the Israeli tools (220V) to the AC wires.

Except the AC units, if you go to any Japanese "Home Center", all the washing machines, dryers, refrigerators etc are all designed for 100V but they are small and consume 15~20 Amperes...Japanese refrigirator size is half of the Israeli size and the Israeli size is, half of the American size.

Japanese washing machines are working on cold water and do not have water heater, so its only the motor that operates on electricity, that makes them, light (most of the parts are made of plastic) and very long lasting and they don't damage the fabrics.

The Kitchen stove is a combined unit that operates on electricity/natural gas and the house water heaters are operated on natural gas.

By the way, when I left Japan, I took with me all the tools that I bought there and I have a step-down transformer 230V to 100V, 30A to operate them.

Best regards
niki

 

[harrysin]

A bit of a slip-up in your statement.

In North America (USA and Canada), electricity bills are based on kilowatthours. as you stated. This is not kilowatts divided by hours but is kilowatts times hours. A kilowatthour is not equal to a kilowatt/hour.
Cassandra,
Is there really such a thing as kilowatts/hour? When an appliance which consumes one kilowatt is switched on it drawes one kilowatt for each second that it remains on, just think about it!

 

[simplenik]

Ok, now I understand where is my "Slip-up", I used "/" instead of saying kilowatt per hour.

I really don't know why they are using the term "Kilowatthour" when actually you are paying for the numbers of kilowatts that you used.

It's like the water company will charge you for "Gallonhour"

I think that behind this term - Kilowatthour - is hiding something that only the Electric company knows, maybe KVAR (Kilo Volt Ampere Reactive)...

niki

 

[Bob N]

Y'all are making me dizzy

 

[lablover]

Did I mention I'm happy with my new dust collector...LMAO

Wow, lots of info flying around.

You guy are the best

Joe

 

[Cassandra]

BJ
Cassie
"Kilowatt/hour" and "kilowatthour" are the same just written in different way, please have a look here
http://sigma.ontologyportal.org:4010/sigma/Browse.jsp?kb=SUMO&term=KilowattHour

And here
http://www.hydroquebec.com/residential/energywise/kilowattheure.html

It means that if on your electric instrument/apliance/machine is written 1000 Watts (or 1 KW) and you operate it for one our, you will pay for 1 Kilowatthour without any difference if it uses 110V or 220V.

Or, if Watts or Kilowats are not stated but only Amperes and it written 9.09 Ampere, and you operate it for one hour, you will pay the same amount because 110V x 9.09A = 1000W (or 1KW). Please have a look here
http://www.hydroquebec.com/residential/energywise/pop_outil_calcul.html

But the best explanation is here
http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/cost.html


From http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/meters.html
Does my meter charge me for volts or for watts? Do higher voltage appliances cost more to run? -- Various readers
The electric company charges you for watt-hours, not volts. To figure volts you use the fomula Volts x Amps = Watts. A device that runs on 240V will use half as many amps as an identical device that runs at 120V, so the wattage will be the same -- and so will the cost.

The kinds of appliances that use 240V tend to be energy hogs, like air conditioners and electric clothes dryers, so running those appliances will cost you. It's not because 240V costs more, it's because you're running energy-gobbling appliances.

niki

niki:

Interesting that none of the links in your message use the term "kilowatt/hour."

In simpler terms A/B is not equal to AB. The first term is a division whilst the second term is a multiplication. For example, miles/hour is miles per hour -- distance divided by time. Mileshour is a nonsensical unit that multiplies distance by time.

Here's a couple of links for you:
http://home.golden.net/~kcr/croads/CRoadsEEI.html
http://home.golden.net/~kcr/croads/CR_SkillsEEI.html

niki, I am an electrical power engineer, trained at the University of Waterloo, in Ontario, Canada. I would know what I am talking about, wouldn't you agree? Your argument that kilowatt/hour is the same as kilowatthour or kilowatt-hour or kilowatt hour is an error that even our (Ontario) elementary students would recognize.

Everyone:

The issue of the meter measuring volts revolves around calculating the kilowatts by measuring volts, amperes and hours and then multiplying the three terms. For a given power, the current is reduced by going to a higher voltage. So, the meter does measure the volts BUT only so that it can calculate the energy (kilowatthours), which is what you billed for.

Cassie

 

[harrysin]

Niki, I don't understand why you will get only twice the water when going from a one inch pipe to a two inch pipe when the opening size will increase by a factor of four according to the formula pi x rsquared, just wondering. (I don't know how to do symbols)

 

[challagan]

Glad the new DC is working out for you Joe. Having a small shop with no exctraction but 2 shop vacs, it would be nice to have that is for sure. Enjoy it!

Corey

 

[simplenik]

Cassie
Even if I don't agree with you...I must agree with you...

But I do agree with you that the two terms are totally different and I'm not going to give you all the...."what I meant is actually this and that"...just simply admit that I made a mistake...sorry

Harry
I wrote "Face area of 1² inch" and "Face area of 2² inch"
I think that I confused you by saying "hose"...that is normally round...

Regards
niki

 

[Mike]

Niki, We must agree to disagree. I do not question your math abilities and I use the same formulas for electrical theory. I promise you in actual use 220 motors cost less to run than 110 motors. The higher electromotive force (voltage) in a 220 motor causes it to start up faster than the lower EMF in a 110 motor. This is identical to filling a tire from an air hose. The tire will fill faster at 90 psi than at 45 psi although they use the same volumn of air. In the case of the motor it reaches speed faster at 220 than at 110, and uses the same amount of energy. The difference is the time it uses the energy. We are charged not for the amount of energy but for the amount of time we use the energy. When a heavy load is placed on the motor and it has to draw additional power to get back up to speed it does so for a shorter time period on 220 than on 110. Please remember that a motor is an elecro-mechanical device and not like a light bulb where time is not an issue. We are charged not for how many kilowatts we use, but for the actual time we use them, and it is less at 220 than it is at 110.

 

[bobj3]

Hi Joe the lablover

I'm glad you are happy with your NEW DC system ,it's nice that you and I can have a 110 volt "door by door" refrigerator full of food in the GREAT USA the land of PLENTY

I guess that's why so many people want to come to the USA and save money running their DC system on 220 volt ...

Enjoy your NEW woodworking equipment JOE and I sure you will in this GREAT land of the U.S.A.

Bj