Rail and Stile and Undersized Plywood - Advice??

5191 Views 30 Replies 17 Participants Last post by Mycrossover, Feb 26, 2018

woodknots

Discussion Starter · Dec 11, 2017

Hello Folks

I'm about to make some doors for a kitchen island, using maple for the rails/stiles and maple ply for the flat panels. Doors will be stained.

Problem I've got is that my rail and stile set (ogee) cuts a 1/4" groove/tenon (not adjustable) and as we know, most plywood is undersized. I can use space balls, but this won't keep the panel from moving in and out due to the undersized thickness of the plywood.

If you've encountered this problem, and overcome it :surprise::grin: I could use some advice. Any suggestions are appreciated.

**Moderators - if this post is in the wrong place, please move it. I wasn't sure where to put it**

Vince

1 - 20 of 31 Posts

Stick486

· #2 · Dec 11, 2017 (Edited)

a layer of veneer on the back side...
hand sand to thickness if required....
or use screen spline instead of space balls..
or use backer rod...

Reactions: 3

hawkeye10

· #3 · Dec 11, 2017

Stick486 said:
a layer of veneer on the back side...
sand to thickness if required....

Good idea Stick.

When stick speaks everyone listons. :wink:

Reactions: 3

DesertRatTom

· #4 · Dec 11, 2017

Finish all parts before assembly so all visible areas are finished. Stick's veneer suggestion is good. I'd still use spaceballs.

RainMan 2.0

· #5 · Dec 11, 2017

DesertRatTom said:
Finish all parts before assembly so all visible areas are finished. Stick's veneer suggestion is good. I'd still use spaceballs.

Now I have to google space balls . I watched the movie , but I suspect this is different :grin:

Reactions: 5

Terry Q

· #6 · Dec 11, 2017

Glue the plywood panel in place since you don’t have to worry about wood movement. Put a toothpick or brad in the gap on the back to push the plywood forward until the glue dries.

In woodworking there is always more then one way to accomplish something.

Stick486

· #7 · Dec 11, 2017

Terry Q said:
Glue the plywood panel in place since you don’t have to worry about wood movement. Put a toothpick or brad in the gap on the back to push the plywood forward until the glue dries.

In woodworking there is always more then one way to accomplish something.

the rails and stiles need to move...

Reactions: 1

DaninVan

· #8 · Dec 11, 2017

By the time you get two or three coats of any finish on, sprayed or brushed, those puppies aren't going to move. But shimming from the back to avoid having a visible hairline gap on the front face makes a lot of sense.
i don't even know how one would go about NOT having the finish bond the components..it's going to get pulled into any abutting surfaces that aren't previously sealed.
That's always a problem with things like doors and doublehung windows.

Terry Q

· #9 · Dec 11, 2017

Stick486 said:
the rails and stiles need to move...

Now I hate to disagree with stick, but

Space balls are to allow a solid wood raised panel to expand and contract, not the style and rails. Any movement of the relatively narrow 2 1/4 inch style and rails will be minimal, and there is nothing constraining the styles and rails from expanding outward. The rails constrain the styles from expanding inward by being glued between them anyway.

In woodworking there is always more then one way to accomplish something.

woodknots

Discussion Starter · #10 · Dec 11, 2017

@Stick486 - screen spline and backer rod are both too thick - the gap between 1/4" groove and 5 or 5.5 mm panel isn't wide enough to accommodate either. Good idea with the veneer.
@DesertRatTom - the finish will be stain and varnish. I plan to finish the panels first for full coverage (in the event of movement) but finishing the rails/stiles before glue-up is a bad idea.
@Terry Q - I like the idea of a toothpick or brad to shim the back

Reactions: 2

Nickp

· #11 · Dec 11, 2017

...or...instead of a groove, make it a rebate, then use beading or equivalent to hold the panel in...sort of like making a glass door...

I like the veneer ideer...

DesertRatTom

· #12 · Dec 11, 2017

vchiarelli said:
@DesertRatTom - the finish will be stain and varnish. I plan to finish the panels first for full coverage (in the event of movement) but finishing the rails/stiles before glue-up is a bad idea.

I stand corrected. I do pre stain fancy, two toned picture frames (with the glue area masked carefully, then apply the final coats after glue up and putting in splines to reinforce the miter joints.

Reactions: 1

DesertRatTom

· #13 · Dec 11, 2017

vchiarelli said:
@DesertRatTom - the finish will be stain and varnish. I plan to finish the panels first for full coverage (in the event of movement) but finishing the rails/stiles before glue-up is a bad idea.

I stand corrected. I do pre stain fancy, two toned picture frames (with the glue area masked carefully, then apply the final coats after glue up and putting in splines to reinforce the miter joints. For plain frames, I apply finish after glue up and sanding the whole thing. Mitered corners sometimes need a little sandpaper adjustment to look right.

Stick486

· #14 · Dec 11, 2017

Terry Q said:
Now I hate to disagree with stick, but

Space balls are to allow a solid wood raised panel to expand and contract, not the style and rails. Any movement of the relatively narrow 2 1/4 inch style and rails will be minimal, and there is nothing constraining the styles and rails from expanding outward. The rails constrain the styles from expanding inward by being glued between them anyway.

In woodworking there is always more then one way to accomplish something.

correct...

Stick486

· #15 · Dec 11, 2017

vchiarelli said:
@Stick486 - screen spline and backer rod are both too thick - the gap between 1/4" groove and 5 or 5.5 mm panel isn't wide enough to accommodate either.
Good idea with the veneer.

short pieces of spline used exactly like space balls...
I did forget to mention that the veneer is a 100% installation but done as numerous short pieces...
they don't fall out nor loosen...

Reactions: 1

Danman1957

· #16 · Dec 11, 2017

Stick,
Please educate me, what is backer rod ?

TIA
Dan

Garyk

· #17 · Dec 11, 2017

My thought would be to edge the maple plywood with hardwood then machine the edges to fit the groves you have available.

It's been a while since I did any cabinets but best I remember the plywood coming from the big box stores was definitely undersized but the good stuff ($$$$) I was getting from my wood supplier was still 3/4 & 1/2 inch. In any event I have a set (3) of bits specifically made for the undersized stuff, made by Whiteside and they are perfectly sized for door panel grooves. I don't remember the price but I'm too cheap to pay too much for things.

Stick486

· #18 · Dec 11, 2017 (Edited)

Danman1957 said:
Stick,
Please educate me, what is backer rod ?

TIA
Dan

Foam rope used to seal/close deep gaps and open joints before caulk is applied,.
Foam rope used behind/under caulking so that caulk forms two point adhesion...
two point (both sides of the joint) the allows the caulk to stretch/compress as designed/advertised and still maintain adhesion...
three point (both sides and bottom of the joint) makes for a poor/weak caulk joint that will break adhesion on it's own... wastes caulk too...
the smallest dia rod I'm aware of is ¼''... 100' roll is about 3 bucks...
great stuff for sealing window and door installations... way cheaper, cleaner and easier than spray in foams...
another item that works better than space balls is slices of sill barrier/seal...

Reactions: 2

jj777746

· #19 · Dec 11, 2017

Stick486 said:
Foam rope used to seal/close deep gaps and open joints before caulk is applied,.
Foam rope used behind/under caulking so that caulk forms two point adhesion...
two point (both sides of the joint) the allows the caulk to stretch/compress as designed/advertised and still maintain adhesion...
three point (both sides and bottom of the joint) makes for a poor/weak caulk joint that will break adhesion on it's own... wastes caulk too...
the smallest dia rod I'm aware of is ¼''... 100' roll is about 3 bucks...
great stuff for sealing window and door installations... way cheaper, cleaner and easier than spray in foams...
another item that works better than space balls is slices of sill barrier/seal...

Sill/barrier seal is real handy to have on hand at all times too

Reactions: 1

JIMMIEM

· #20 · Dec 12, 2017

Another option to space balls, screen spline, and backer rod is some dried silicone caulk. Run a 1/4" bead on a piece of wax paper. After it has dried cut to size and use as you would a space ball.

Reactions: 2

1 - 20 of 31 Posts

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.