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Recommendation from the Scroll Saw'ers...?

20K views 83 replies 20 participants last post by  Stick486  
#1 ·
I'm thinking of getting a scroll saw...don't have a specific project in mind but it will make small stuff, I'm sure...16-20" size, I suppose...?

If I were to look for a used machine, what are the more desirable models to look for...?

Thanks in advance...
 
#18 ·
Thanks, Herb...how long have you had the 788...?
 
#3 ·
I'm thinking about getting one too. Anyone ever use a Makita? There's one about 16" and older for sale for $175 on one of our marketplace sites.
 
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#4 ·
I just did some review searches today and the feedback from some owners leaves none of the current models with a lot to look forward to owning - it's a made in China issue apparently. Inconsistent quality is what some end up with and poor customer service adding salt to the wound.
 
#19 ·
I also found the reviews not reassuring...the biggest reason for looking for older models...thanks for the review search
 
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#20 ·
Thanks, Dave...one of the things that pushed me over the edge to look for a saw was your original post of the beautiful boxes you made. While some of the ones I've made are good they are nowhere near the look of yours.

If I find the right saw I plan to make box tops (like yours, although not as intricate). Using the saw to make templates comes to mind also...seems it would make that job easier.

Thanks again...
 
#6 ·
Cast iron table is a biggie. (Unless it's an RBI Hawk, then the thick aluminum is just fine)

I like the older Delta's (18 & 20 inch). They weigh a ton and have low vibration. Even though they are 30+ years old there are a lot of parts still available. If you keep your eyes open you can get a lot of saw for under $200.

Whatever saw you are looking at, it's worth the 5 minutes to see how easy it is to get parts from eBay or ereplacementparts.com

The blade clamps on my Delta Q3 saws I can still find on eBay, and the hawk still has parts available online.

I still want an old powermatic or Rockwell saw... but I don't have the floor space for it....yet
 
#21 ·
Thanks, Doug...good recommendation to check on availability of parts for the older saws. I looked for the older Delta's and Rockwell's and found quite a few on Marketplace...all seem reasonably priced.
 
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#7 ·
If the upper arm and blade is powered up and down as well as the lower arm, it is probably a good saw. If the upper arm and end of the saw blade is pulled back up by a spring, the saw is a candidate for being a door stop. That was the final purpose of my spring return jig saw (won't even call it a scroll saw). When it was no god as a door stop, it went to metal salvage.

A DeWalt 788 is what I have and I've been quite pleased with it. I've re-built it 2 times now, replacing most of the bearings each time.

Delta now offers a similar saw to the 788, and I own a lot of old Delta tools, but refuse to buy from the new Delta Tool Company because of parts and warranty problems. They are trying, but are far from being a good company to do business with, in my opinion.

Excaliber has had it's own problems too. But recently, they are back selling a similar saw to the DeWalt, again. They had a very good saw, but I don't know how the latest versions are doing.

Then there is the RBI saw by Bushton. The more recent variable speed models are supposed to be quite good. Some people like them. I'm just not a fan of their saws.

Right now, if I was to buy a new scroll saw, it would likely be a Pegas saw, but they aren't cheap. If price is really important, I would consider DeWalt, or maybe the Delta, but only because it is made much like the DeWalt 788, and I know how to get better bearings cheaper than their parts suppliers offer. Jet offers a scroll saw now, as does Seyco, but they aren't budget priced saws either, and I have no personal experience with either of them.

Just avoid the saws with the spring return on the blade, and you will likely have a pretty good scroll saw.

If you want to hook up with the scroll saw experts, consider joining www.scrollsawvillage.com. You will find me there too, but also most other serious scroll saw users of the World.

Charley
 
#22 ·
Charley...thank you for all the info. How old is your 788 that it needed bearings...? (couldn't help wondering) Are the new 788's as good as the older ones...?

Are the bearings unique or can one grab the number on the bearing and find them easily...?

And much thanks for the note on the spring return...will definitely keep that top of the list...!

Thanks again for your response...
 
#11 ·
Not delta!!!!
 
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#14 · (Edited)
I would say I liked my Delta best for the blades (it took pinned, and pinless), but I like my Excalibur's ability to keep my work surface cleaner. I wish my Excalibur took pinned as well as pinless blades (like my old Delta did)

To add to that...

Look at scroll saws like any other tool; what will you be doing with it. If you were going to do detailed/fret work, make sure you get pinless.. my gf had one that was pinned blades only, and she was limited on what she could cut, because, of course with pins, the holes can only be so small to get the blade through.
 
#26 ·
Thanks, Barb, for the reminder on pin/pinless...good point...
 
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#15 ·
#30 ·
Thanks, Dan...will definitely keep an eye on pin/pinless...(don't think I'll be springing for the Pegas though)
 
#16 ·
If you're looking for a used machine, first priority to me would be if it worked or not. Then what would it be used for. I've got a Craftsman I bought new, and on sale, for $35, around 25 years ago. I've never done any detail work with it, just cut out my masters, close to the line, then sand them to final shape. Basically, that is all I use it for. Supposedly it uses both pinned and pinless blades, but all I use is the pinned blades - easier for me to change. Works for me.
 
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#27 ·
Thanks, Theo...good reminder that the ole Craftsmans had some value...
 
#25 ·
I have an old Craftsman direct drive cast iron I that I have rebuilt several times. New bearings and made a connecting rod out of aluminum. I don't do precision work with it but it has cut lots of toy bodies over the years. I had an old delta that I sold years ago wish I still had that saw. If I was going to buy a new one it would probably be a Dewalt. Look on Facebook Marketplace I find a lot of deals on there for used stuff.
 
#29 ·
Thanks, Roxanne...I also find lots of goodies on Marketplace...that's where I've started looking for the older saws.
 
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#28 ·
I just wrote to Pegasus because their site was deficient on information. We'll see how fast they reply and what information they provide.

Most of what I've read over the years favors the DeWalt or the Excaliber. Apparently each machine differs in terms of vibraton. You should probably purchase from a source with a good return policy. I have had great CS on returns from Home Depot. The DeWalt is about $562 on HD site. Buy online, deliver at local store.

The Pegasas is $789 online, plus shipping, which varies by your location.

I found an excellent review of several 16 inch scroll saws and two 20 inch saws on the Popular Mechanics site for 2020. The 788 gets a good review there, It also suggests the price should be around $400+, which price I did not find. https://www.popularmechanics.com/home/tools/reviews/a143/1274521/

At this point, if I were buying one, I'd probably go for the DeWalt. If it vibrated my teeth loose, I'd return it and get a replacement. The DeWalt has short reciprocating arms which lowers the vibration rate, but I did find that mass helps reduce vibration. In the past, I've seen recommendations for putting sandbags over the base's crossbars to absorb vibration. Looking at parts, I think the DeWalt parts are overpriced and if I used it intensely for years, I'd probably just replace it since there is no rebuild available and I just don't do repairs on tools. If you don't mind, then this is an annoyance.

The only mystery left is will the 788 take pinless and pinned blades. I was unable to find this information. Which is very strange. Anyone know?
 
#31 ·
According to the manual it says "Use only 5" plain end scroll saw blade"...forums I've lurked also say "pinless only"...
 
#32 ·
Thank you all for your responses...

It looks like the 788 is right up there along with the older Deltas/Rockwells. And not to be outdone, the RBI's...all seem to be in a reasonable price range.

I do see a few 788's for sale on Marketplace...prices seem high though...450-550..."used twice" and other fond statements. Begs the question, how old a 788 should I look for...?

Good thing is that I have time to wait for the right one...in the meantime, research continues...

Thank you for the links to the additional research and forums...
 
#33 · (Edited)
The delta 695 is supposed to be a clone of the dewalt and parts are some what inter change able. If you go to scroll saw village the dewalt or delta are the prefered on the low end the delta is about $100 lower. I bought a use Rbi It came with bunch real small blades . Its a real smooth saw the blades I have is for 1/4 stook so need to heavier blades.

https://www.amazon.com/Delta-Power-...scroll+saw+dewalt+dw788&qid=1589307558&sprefix=scroll+saw+dewalt,aps,166&sr=8-4
https://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DW788...scroll+saw+dewalt+dw788&qid=1589307471&sprefix=scroll+saw+dewalt,aps,166&sr=8-1
 
#34 ·
Thanks, Gary...appreciate the links...will make sure I visit scroll saw village...
 
#35 ·
What do you guys think about an RBI 220VS variable speed, stand, few blades for $335...?

I understand the motor on earlier models was not up to snuff and very expensive to upgrade...you guys know anything about this...? Years involved...?

Thanks
 
#36 · (Edited)
Nick, You absolutely don't want an old Delta or Rockwell scroll saw. Those old saws have the spring to pull up the blade. Think about it. If you have a mechanism that pushes and pulls the blade up and down from only the bottom, and you bind the blade in the cut, what happens? I'll tell you. The mechanism under the table pushes the blade up anyway, and it buckles and breaks. You will go through many saw blades because of this.

It wasn't until the new design scroll saws came on the market, that you could use smaller blades and they would last, usually until they were too dull to cut any more, and if you keep cutting with a dull blade, you will be pushing the work hard into the blade. It will get hot, loose it's temper, and break. With the new design saws that both pulled the blade down, and also pulled the blade up, saw blades don't break easily any more, and it's possible to use smaller and smaller blades in these new design scroll saws, which then brought on the pin less blades, so smaller start holes can be drilled to allow even finer work. Blades with pins are huge when compared with what I regularly use now. I'm useing mostly a #1R skip tooth. The R version has backwards teeth on the bottom 1" of the blade to reduce splintering of the back of the work as the blade exits.

There are people who cut nickels, dimes, and quarters, leaving the outer edge and the buffalo, face, etc. in the middle to make unique jewelry.

My most used scroll saw is a DeWalt 788 Type 1. It was made in Canada. The type 2 was made in Taiwan. I believe the type 3 is being made in Mexico. The type 1's are highly sought after, because they were more precisely made and assembled. I believe that the very early type 2 had several early manufacturing problems that got them a bad reputation, because I've used some newer type 2 saws and found nothing wrong with them. I haven't yet seen a type 3, but it likely had some start-up problems with the new manufacturing line too.

The bearings that seem to wear the most are the larger bearings in the back of the saw. The motor has an offset shaft that functions like a crankshaft in a car. A kind-of connecting rod pushes and pulls on a rocker arm, and there are bearings on both ends of the connecting rod and smaller bearings on the rocker arm. These are the bearings that suffer the most wear. The top and bottom of the rocker arm pushes and pulls long rods that work the short stroke arms that move the blade. All of these pivot points have very tiny needle bearings, and the internal race of these bearings is actually a sleeve that the bearing pivots around. The sleeve has a bolt through it.

You need to study a DeWalt 788 and try using it to understand how it works, and why this saw design is so much better than those spring return blade mechanisms. Every quality scroll saw that has come out since about 2000 uses this same basic design. Excalibur invented it, then made the saw for DeWalt. The rest is history.

My other Scroll Saw is a Delta 40-650 Q3 scroll saw. It came out in 1997 and was a revelation over most of the other saws on the market. It both pushes and pulls the blade from both top and bottom, but the saw arms form kind-of a large "C" with the blade connected across the opening between the ends of the "C" This C frame pivots from the rear, so the saw blade kind-of rocks forward and backward as it goes up and down. For fast cutting this saw is way faster than the DeWalt 788, because this rocking motion makes the cutting more aggressive. Detailed fine cutting suffers as a result of this, so I use it when I have larger work without the fine details. It's a pretty good saw, but not so much when the smaller finer cutting is desired. The blade clamps tend to be finicky too.
The DeWalt blade clamps are so much easier to use than the ones on this Delta saw.

Shortly after Delta offered the 40-650, Delta and DeWalt merged. Then, not too long afterward, Delta was sold, but Delta kept the rights to make a saw very similar to the DeWalt saw, and they are selling their version today, cheaper than DeWalt is selling their version, but this new Delta company has had some major quality and CS problems, making many shy away from their products.

Now Jet, Pegus, Seyco, King, and several others are also making similar saws. All of these use the same style blade mechanisms that Excalibur came out with and built for DeWalt. I don't know the reliability of these saws, but all use the same style blade motion and control. To me, DeWalt is the lowest priced when not considering Delta, but for the price, Delta might be worth considering, if you don't have the money for one of the better brands.

Notice that I haven't said a thing about RBI saws. Some people like them. I don't. I'm a retired EE Automation Engineer, and the RBI saws look and feel like an experimental prototype to me. RBI no longer makes them and a company called Bushton now has the rights to them. I heard that this was a small company owned by a farmer, and when it's crop season, the saw business takes second place. I have never verified this, but it could have something to do with how slowly their product technology progresses.

I've said too much. Go to www.scrollsawvillage.com for more.

Charley
 
#39 ·
WOW...! That is one extensive reply...lots of info to sort through.

I've also noted the difference a few hours of research makes. Since my earlier post I've come to understand your recommendation to beware of the spring models...definitely makes sense. (I really liked your crankshaft analogy, having torn a few connecting rods loose at 8500RPM) :grin:

What all the information you and others have provided has taught me I am nowhere ready to buy. Deals will always come along and I still have shop furniture to build.

I did look through some posts on scrollvillage yesterday and it will be a slow process assimilating all the info. Between that and, hopefully soon, visiting some sellers I hope to know enough to get on the right path.

Charley, I can't thank you enough for all the info you've passed on...it's certainly enough to send me in the right direction.
 
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#40 · (Edited)
Every now and again I get the bug to get a nice scroll saw. The 788 is usually the one I can find locally, pricing is always around 400-500 for one in real nice condition. Occasionally I see an RBI for a few hundred more. I can only speak to what I've read about RBI, and for the most part, they are indeed a well established scroll saw. The question for the Dewalts seems to be type 1 or 2.... Ones being the out of the box better unit, but no longer in production and as I understand it, havn't been in production for 15 years or so... the type 2 early on had issues, but have seen been pretty much resolved. Don't know nuttin about type 3's, dont' even know if they are out there yet. A later model type 2 in really nice shape for around 400 is a good deal. Pricing on RBI's is all over depending on age and condition. This has been a most interesting thread, tons of really good information on saws and what to look for and what not to get. If I ever do get one, right now I tend to lean towards a later model 788 type 2. One of these days I'll figure out how to determine what exactly constitutes a later model :)


edit: forgot to add that the pricing should be "with" the factory stand...
 
#41 ·
In my area the RBI 220VS's are going for $300-400. The problem is identifying whether the machine is in the era that they had motor issues versus the later years when the motors were upgraded. The upgrade is apparently expensive. On the other hand, even those early models are still going strong...so maybe it doesn't matter if it's lasted this long.

From what I've read it's a matter of getting the serial number and contacting Bushton Manufacturing and asking them for any information they can provide for that serial number. Not sure what the history is regarding all the different owners. Scroll Village seems to have all that info...another site to lurk...:smile: Will likely join that forum to do some searching and querying...
 
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#42 ·
I manage the maker spaces for Hacker Lab, Inc. We offer membership to people who like to make stuff. We provide our members with everything from 3D printers to laser cutters, Shopbot CNC, Tormach CNCs and every common wood working tool you can imagine. Three years ago I was about to buy a new scroll saw for our Sacramento maker space. So I asked Marc Berner, the guy who wrote the book "Scroll Saw Basics" what he recommended. Marc told me I should buy a General International Excalibur EX 21. He told said it would be solid, dependable, be easy to adjust, and it would not break blades as frequently as some of the other scroll saws on the market. He told me it would be a good choice for people who are just starting out and a wonderful saw for members who were experienced and knew their way around a scroll saw. I looked at the Excalibur but I was put off by the price and some negative Amazon reviews. So I kept looking. We have had pretty good luck with Dewalt tools at Hacker Lab. So, I went with the Dewalt 788. The 788 is a great saw if it is properly adjusted, aligned and you install the correct blades for your type and thickness of wood. I recommend Olson scroll saw blades they make a big difference. That being said, looking back, I wish I had purchased the Excalibur. I have had to order parts and repair our Dewalt 788 four times in the last three years. The blade holder in our 788 has not been able to stand up the amount of use it gets. I have had to replace the rocker assembly, the blade chuck, the blade set screws and clamp knobs, and the main power switch. On the on the plus side, there is a Dewalt Service center in Sacramento and I can get parts quickly from ereplacementparts.com. But more than that, beginning scroll saw users have a hard time properly loading blades. They usually over tighten the blades in the holder, get them out of alignment, and then over tension them. When they start cutting they use the highest speed possible so the blade snaps. Looking back if I had it to do over again I would buy a used Excalibur EX21 scroll saw, that is in good condition. I know that Amazon gives the Excalibur only three stars, but the guy who literally "wrote the book" on how to use a a scroll saw thinks they are great.
 
#67 ·
Thanks, J...that's quite the review...much appreciated...
 
#45 ·
@Nickp...

you like road trips...
contact every scroll saw user here - each w/ a different make and model...
test drive them all...
pick the one ya like the best and chase after it...
lots of coffee and donuts should cover the rental fees...