Short answer.. yes you can pinch the blade while cross cutting, especially if the miter fence is much shorter than the workpiece! Blade diameter with respect to board width doesn't really matter.

 

Jerry, Duane gave you the correct answer! Blade diameter has nothing to do with kickback. Anytime a board (rip or crosscut matters not) gets turned ever-so-slightly between fence and blade - you are going to get kickback. Cross-cuts are notorious for kickbacks, but they can happen regardless of type of cut. Never trap a board between saw blade and fence! Often cross-cuts utilize the miter gauge, but there should not be fence contact at that point. If you have repetitive cuts to make, you can clamp a block to your fence that you will "bump-to", but the workpiece MUST BE FREE of contact with anything parallel to the blade, to avoid kickback. I still have an ugly scar on my belly from a kickback injury from the past - a horse could not have kicked me harder! The board came back at me so hard it made a hole in my flannel shirt, undershirt and skin.

 

Jerry, Duane gave you the correct answer! Blade diameter has nothing to do with kickback. Anytime a board (rip or crosscut matters not) gets turned ever-so-slightly between fence and blade - you are going to get kickback. Cross-cuts are notorious for kickbacks, but they can happen regardless of type of cut. Never trap a board between saw blade and fence! Often cross-cuts utilize the miter gauge, but there should not be fence contact at that point. If you have repetitive cuts to make, you can clamp a block to your fence that you will "bump-to", but the workpiece MUST BE FREE of contact with anything parallel to the blade, to avoid kickback. I still have an ugly scar on my belly from a kickback injury from the past - a horse could not have kicked me harder! IThe board came back at me so hard it made a hole in my flannel shirt, undershirt and skin.

Doug,
Sometimes I think that communicating in this manner does have it's short comings. I can understand that a board can pinch when being cross cut if you say so, I just have never experienced it and that is why I asked. I should say that I haven't had a kick back cross cutting on the TS but I sure have with the RAS as I stated above. That should have answered my question about the pinching issue.

In regard to trapping a board between the blade and the fence and having it bind, I don't see how a piece of wood with a cut longer than the diameter of the blade can bind any differently than a board that is being ripped using the rip fence. I do understand the bindiing issue when the piece being cut is narrow in width and the cut is relatively short. I do not want to appear to be argueing, just having trouble understanding sometimes.

Jerry

 

Jerry,

Here is a photo of a kick-back that happened to me.
I was simply trimming the fingers of the green piece of 1/4" plywood I was using as a backer for box joints.
I used the push stick, to push the board through. The stick was just pushing the end on my side.
I cant say that I seen what happened, that is, it happened so fast, "BANG", The wood flew past my head with huge force, and took out the tubes in the light fixture behind me.

The push stick was ripped from my hand, I stood there for awhile in shock, looking like a blithering idiot.

What I think happened was, the board lifted up as it was past the front of the blade, and caught on the teeth on the rear.
The blade tracks on the board show that, I think.

Now I use one of many push devices like on the left, to push through, and hold down the board to clear past the back of the blade, where the teeth are raising upward.

I would seem a small piece of plywood would not be much of a threat, but, it became a bullet when launched by that 4000rpm blade!

 

No guard, Don? In theory at least the pawls on the guard would have jammed the wood down tight and prevented the launch. Just sayin...

 

The incident happened on a smaller saw that I do not have a gaurd for.
However the saw pictured does have a gaurd, though, at far left, is a narrow strip of maple I needed to rip, the gaurd will not allow that.
With very narrow strips, I have to be extra careful for sure.

If I was trimming the green plywood now, I would use the gaurd, with its anti kick-back pawls as that piece is wide enough for clearance.
The other saw is set up for box joint duty only now.
After the incident pictured, I made changes in my aproach, to table saw work.
But, a gaurd can not be always used, as in the case of very narrow strips, where as, I need a better edge finish then a band saw can do.
Though Iam now testing the router table to get a good edge finish on thin strips, and maybe be able to band saw them instead of using the table saw.
That is, setting up the router table as a small jointer. My 8" jointer is just too much for thin narrow pieces.

Don

The huge majority of woodworkers never use a gaurd at all, thus nearly 80000, accidents yearly.

 

Jerry, (Who's Doug?) if it were not for friction below the teeth, your theory could work, but; since on a rectangular piece of wood - any diagonal measurement will be greater than a side dimension, thus the pinch. It doesn't take blade teeth to lift a board - the pinch can take place between any part of a moving blade and a fence. Dan's point (above) is correct - the safety pawls should do their job, but good habits must be employed even with the best safety measures in place. Great question!

 

"The huge majority of woodworkers never use a gaurd at all, thus nearly 80000, accidents yearly."

Are those the ones that required an ER visit? I'm guessing that's where the statistics originate? Probably triple that number if the bandaid incidents are added in...

 

Hi Dan,

I have poked around about this just alittle.
This is for 2007-2008.
Its interesting in many respects.

http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia11/os/statsaws.pdf

Ha, Ha, I am a machinist so I look at machines from that perspective.
In my view, woodworkers "in general" take considerable risk, and do many things I would not even consider.
Like standing in line with the blade, both hands stradling the blade, or some heroic move like holding a binding board against multiple Hp, while trying to hit the off button for example.

Don

 

In my view, woodworkers "in general" take considerable risk, and do many things I would not even consider.

Like standing in line with the blade, both hands stradling the blade, or some heroic move like holding a binding board against multiple Hp, while trying to hit the off button for example.

Hi Don

That's untrained woodworkers.... But then that's where the greatest problems lie, I suppose. Because of the relatively high rotation speeds of woodworking cutters when things go wrong, they often go wrong really fast. I know that from personal experience; overhead pin router, 10HP, 20k rpm, 2-flute cutter + left thumb = 20-odd lacerations resulting in 13 stitches. Total time circa 1/30th second :cray: You don't notice the pain at first, all you see is the blood. Really


Regards

Phil

 

It seems to me that common sense tells me that if the cross cut is longer than the diameter of the blade that there is no chance of the work piece binding. Also does it make sense that a cross cut won't pinch and cause a kick back like a rip cut can do.

Hi Jerry

The best thing is always to regard a long rip fence as a potential trap hazard and if you must use it add an auxilliary stop to it which gives you plenty of "wiggle room" where the item leaves the back of the blade. Better still if your saw will accommodate it set up a length stop on the mitre gauge or crosscut sled and remove the rip fence from the machine. Safest method of all is a length stop on a crosscut saw such as a mitre saw or radial arm saw - that is, after all, what they are designed to do best - make cross cuts (as opposed to table saws)

Regards

Phil

 

Oddly even the "experts", like "Norm Abrams" and even more interesting "Steve Gass" the Sawstop inventer.
I think its on the Sawstop web site, where as "Gass" is ripping a board, standing directly in front of the blade, with both hands going past the blade on each side.
He then does the same action, with a blob of sausage, with hot dogs for fingers to show the action of the blade dropping ect.
Now its just me, my thoughts, if one is going to operate a saw like that, then it would be wise to pay the money for the Sawstop, to help with, but not fully compensate for "what seems to me" to be reckless operation of a machine.

Don

 

and even more interesting "Steve Gass" the Sawstop inventer.

But isn't Gass a lawyer rather than a woodworker? As to Norm, look at my strapline below - that really is a quote from Uncle Norm

I wonder if the Safety guys on jobsites report the small cuts and bruises? Probably not as that'd attract Workers Comp. investigators.

In my experience accidents that just require a sticking plaster (Band Aid?) just don't go in the book. If they did I think the powers that be would ban the Stanley knife!

Three times, the wood blew apart, throwing sharp pieces at high velocity.

The wood looked sound with no visable cracks or knots. It happened both ripping, and cross cutting.

I've had that a few times over the years. Only a few times have I been able to look at the remains of the timber afterwards and determine that it was caused by "thunder shakes". These are almost hairline cross grain cracks which normally can't even be seen until the surface is planed:

They can occur when the tree crashes to the ground during felling or as a result of storm damage and are almost impossible to spot until the wood has been smoothed by planing. A thunder shake can result in the timber snapping during handling or even disintegrating in machining (normally in the thickness planer in my experience)

Your comments about carbide teeth cracking and spitting fragments just reinforces my feelings about using a crown guard over the blade as often as possible and wearing safety glasses even though I know it doesn't happen that often

Regards

Phil

 

Don; thanks for linking that report. Very interesting reading; talk about your wake-up call!
A physical manifestation of the old saying 'familiarity breeds contempt'.
I'm sure that 80K is just a tiny fraction of the total incidents, the ones not resulting in a serious injury of course not getting reported through the ER reporting mechanism.
I wonder if the Safety guys on jobsites report the small cuts and bruises? Probably not as that'd attract Workers Comp. investigators.

 

There have been places that I have worked at, that would do anything to prevent the reporting of injury. Even finding Doctors that would patch op a person for cash, and keeping it quiet.

I have been doing alot of sawing in the past couple of years, and I have had a few incidents.
Three times, the wood blew apart, throwing sharp pieces at high velocity.
The wood looked sound with no visable cracks or knots. It happened both ripping, and cross cutting.

This is somthing that happened just a few weeks ago.
This is a 12" rip blade that came with a used saw I bought. I got a stack of blades with the saw, all good quality.
I thought I would try this one out, and it spit off a portion of a tooth. There were no nails or rocks in this board.
When the tooth let go, it hit my blade gaurd.
I just do not place myself at anytime in line with a rotating blade.
I think what happened is, at some point the blade was dropped, or banged into, cracking the brittle carbide, it then let go when under the normal stress of cutting.
There have been reports of the steel blade bodies coming apart, throwing much heavier pieces out.
Something to keep in mind, I think!

Phil,
I think you are right about long fences!
I dont know why many think the longer the better, perhaps they are mixing it up with something else.

 

Beware

In my years of working in the shop, I will say this "Any size piece, cross cut or rip , You should assume it will Kick back". Words to live by in the shop. :sold:

 

Have any of you used the Micro Jig Grr-Ripper?

It's about the safest way to handle wood on a table saw, router table, or bandsaw that I have come across.


Tom

 

Micro Jig Grr-Ripper.....

It's about the safest way to handle wood on a table saw, router table, or bandsaw that I have come across.

Well, Tom, I have just watched a GRR-Gripper video on YouTube and i'm extremely underwhelmed. This device requires the fence to be set to run past the blade for ripping (only acceptable in some circumstances), it requires the crown guard to be removed for it to work and it requires the operator to run his hand within a few inches of the blade in use. All major no-no's in my book. Watching the video it was obvious that on some of the cuts should the user lose his balance or have his right hand slip then his hand is so close to the blade that a near miss or an accident is inevitable. So I think it's another "solution" which fails to address the primary safety issues. You'd never get that past a factory inspector or works safety officer over here in a million years - and rightly so IMHO

Regads

Phil

 

Jerry, if you can crosscut without the use of the mitre gauge then you are probably okay. In other words, if the piece is wide enough to firmly register against the fence so that you don't need the mitre gauge to keep it square then it is reasonably safe. If you need the mitre gauge then you either shouldn't use the fence or add a block well in front of the point of blade contact so that there is a gap at the end of your cutoff as suggested before.

The fact that you have done it without getting hurt is a testament of some skill on your part and luck. There are lots of things that can be done in unsafe ways many times without a problem. It's that one time when your luck runs out that is the problem.

 

This thread is why this forum is so valuable to me. I have learned and am still learning about issues that due to my inexperience could have caused me to get hurt real bad. I recently cut a piece of wood that is three inches long which I have placed one end against the rip fence and the piece that I wanted to cross cut against the other end. Then I used the miter gauge to hold the piece sollidly in place while making the cut. This of course allowed a three inch space between the work piece and the fence when making the cut. I made several cuts this way and was a little surprised at how accurate and consistant the cuts were. I was careful to cut t

he three inch block as close to three inches as I could. This allowed me to use the scale on the Incra LS system's scale. I just need to add three inches to what the scale reads to off set the three inch block.

Back to the safety issue, I have been attempting to tell myself each time that I make a cut that this could be the time, and have I done all that i can to be sure that this cut is safe. This has not off set the potential for an accident, it caused me to keep my wits about me. Now with what I am learning on this thread some of my procedures will be modified which will help somewhat. Sure would like to buy a Saw Stop. Maybe if I let my wife read this thread she will give me the go ahead.

Jerry

 

Jerry, the current issue of Wood Magazine has a very informative article on kickback, both from table saws, and routers. I highly recommend you purchase it and read it. It reaffirms everyones suggestion to use either a riving knive or a splitter to reduce the chance of kickback.

 

There are sooooo many woodworking cuts, that can also be made on the bandsaw.

The bandsaw is a lot safer than a tablesaw. More versatile, too.

 

You're on the right track Jerry.

The way I look at it is like this. Let's say I am using the fence for a stop and maybe I have even had one or two pieces get pinched but I got away with it. My odds of getting hurt might be a million to one which is not bad odds. But I'm also not using push sticks when I rip narrow pieces. Maybe the odds just went down to 100,000 to one. Still not too bad. But I also never bother to lower the blade when I rip thin material. Maybe the odds just went down to 10,000 to one. Now they're not so good.

Every little thing you can do safer will improve the odds that you will never get hurt. You are absolutely right when you say you stop and ask yourself if you have done everything you can to make the next cut safely. That would be a good sign to hang on the workshop wall. "Have I done everything I can to make the next job safe?"

 

Jerry;

The primary reason they no longer make left tilting arbor table saws was due to the injuries from table saws with the left tilting arbors.

Another piece of advice is to not cut a piece of wood shorter than the diameter of your saw blade without a hold down. It won't be the blade that does you in, but the wood will kick back and sheer your finger off.

I bought a device called a gripper that I can go right over the saw blade and prevents the danger from either of these problems.

Speaking from experience.....

Eight Finger Bob

 

The primary reason they no longer make left tilting arbor table saws was due to the injuries from table saws with the left tilting arbors

Bob, Bob, Bob...

You know, in all the reports I read, I didn't see any breakdown on right tilt or left tilt table saws. At least in North America, which we both live, left tilt saws have taken over since the 1960's and current models manufactured for sale here outnumber right tilt saws. It may well be true that most of those numbers did occur on an American Study with Left tilt saws, only because of the sheer number of them being used here compared to right tilt saws.

No longer made? You have to really go out of your way and find a right tilt saw here in the US. Don't get me wrong, I personally prefer a right-tilt saws. So I'm not saying that in meaning any disrespect nor soliciting conflict . I am just concerned for you that you might want to check your facts so you don't embarrass yourself. If I'm wrong with that, I would hope that you would please correct me on how I might be misinformed with that.

European saws... right tilt's, now that's another story. Their own studies, standards of safety that they've come up with and pressuring equipment manufacturers to hold to those safety standards... the Europeans do seem to have it over on us there (embarrassingly) hands down. Here those things we sometimes take for granted and seem somewhat optional in comparison.

I've talked with Phil about this at length. Some things are strict over there on what I take for granted here (like in using dados) but they have standards that they have implemented and are committed to make things safer. Like blade brakes and arbor safety locks that prevent an arbor nut from loosening during that abrupt braking. I highly respect what Phil has to say about saws and safety.

 

How many times I have seen a driver go through a red light and not have an accident.

This still does not encourage me to drive through a red light...........[one day your'e gonna get caught]...same principle.

 

More likely 'T'-boned.

 

I only have close calls when wifey is in the car...

 

That could get you into trouble.....LOL

 

I worked in sales for a custom cabinet shop. I recall the owner saying that he heard of more accidents with a guard than without one. This guy had been building cabinets for over 30 years. Go figure. Main thing is to be careful. I cut some plywood today and stood off to the side while cutting- crosscut and ripping.

 

"I recall the owner saying that he heard of more accidents with a guard than without one."
And I know where Jimmy Hoffa's buried...
John, I think I'd be more inclined to believe the ER and Workers Comp. hard statistics than folklore. Do you remember the very same sort of claims being made about seat belts when they became mandatory? "I heard about this guy that was thrown from his car; saved his life."
I do agree though that like with many things, folks that have been doing something that is potentially dangerous, for a long time, probably are survivors. It's the newbies that bleed.

 

Heh...
http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enh...atic/enhanced/webdr03/2012/11/30/12/anigif_enhanced-buzz-28449-1354297555-0.gif
That'd be the TS without the guard.

 

Starting to sound like the only way to be safe in regard to wood working tools is to take up another interest, maybe needle point, and just stay away from those dangerious tools.

Same thing might be said about driving a car, just don't do it and don't take a chance that you might be involved in a auto accident.

Life is full of potential problems, all we can do is to be careful, use common sense and pay attention.

Jerry

 

Managed Risk


Identifiable risks, Jerry, not problems. Follow well established safety rules/guidelines; "common sense" is no match for experience.
The safety guidelines that preface every powertool manual assume that 'common sense' is in short supply