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The time has arrived for a revolution in america

26171 Views 162 Replies 31 Participants Last post by  harrysin, 
harrysin
I'm probably right in thinking that routers were invented in America, and like so many countries that have been first to embrace new technology, America is no different in ending up with outdated routers. Americans keep telling me that Porter Cable style template guides are the standard, and if this is so it's plain stupid! Firstly, fixed base routers appear to be more prevalent than plunge routers, the latter being far more versatile than fixed base ones. Plunge routers can do EVERYTHING that a fixed base one can plus LOTS more. This is a FACT, so why aren't plunge routers being promoted. I'm aware that there are "combo" units that have a fixed and plunge base but there really is no substitute for a tool specifically designed for a purpose.
Back to the present design of American routers, most have a magnificent BIG opening in the base but then fit a sub-base with a tiny opening, sheer madness! It's madness because only the P.C. style template guides fit and these restrict the internal diameter such that one is left with the use of a smaller selection of bits, also with smaller guides it isn't possible to SEE what the tip of the bit is doing, and most importantly, with most of your routers the collet will not pass through the guide, restricting the depth of cut, also if the operator plunges too far, the collet rubs on the guide which can unscrew the guide, I know, it's happened to me on two occasions when I used the PC style guide because I didn't have the exact size in a sensible one piece guide for my Makita.
America isn't the only country ending up with outdated technology that it was the first to introduce. The UK was the first country to introduce television in about 1937 using the 405 line system and in the meantime when TV was re-introduced after the war, other countries opted for the higher resolution 625 system and only started the changeover in the mid 60's and instead of the five year envisaged changeover period, it took something like 20 years.
Another example is America where colour television was first introduced using the NTSC system whilst most of the rest of the world commenced broadcasts using the far superior German developed PAL system with a few, including France opted for an in-between system known as SECAM.
So my fellow routologists in America don't you think it's time to start a revolution, ASK for PLUNGE routers with BIG template guides (and whilst you're at it why not go all the way and ask for METRIC) if retailers keep getting such requests they are bound to eventually talk to the manufacturers.
There, I feel better now!
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jw2170
harrysin said:
Gentlemen and of course ladies, it's been brought to my attention that members are upset that this thread is still active and that I should end it. Please advise me if this is what you want.
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Harry, I believe that this is still an open public forum, last time I checked?:yes4:

People do not have to respond if they are so inclined. I see nothing abusive , harassing or intimidating in your posts.

The tread is only still active, as members continue to post. If ALL members were dissatisfied the thread would die a natural death.

It takes two to continue a discussion.........:haha:
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Harrison67
harrysin said:
Gentlemen and of course ladies, it's been brought to my attention that members are upset that this thread is still active and that I should end it. Please advise me if this is what you want.
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Keep up the good work, Harry. I will always defend the right of Free Speech. Nothing bad in this thread, or any other.:yes2:
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harrysin said:
I must admit that I learned the finer points of routing on a one on one basis over a number of years from Tom who was I thought a close friend and lived close to me.
When designing a template, the first thing that we consider is the size of template guide and bit that is to be used, so if we use a 40mm guide with a 3mm bit we calculate as follows: 40 - 3 = 37mm therefore the offset will be 18.5mm and the opening in the template will be: the size of the routed item plus 37mm and the routed radius will be 3mm. Of course there will be shapes that would make the template far too big, in which case the design will be based on a smaller guide.
The only time that a 12mm bit is essential is when routing an accurate 12mm groove, but a 50mm deep groove is not something that I've ever needed. When it comes to deep routing say the inside and outside of a box, then it doesn't of course matter what size bit is used so long as the template is designed for it.
I did not agree with some of Tom's ideas and that contributed to going our seperate ways but there can be no denying that he has an incredible knowledge of routing but lacks the ability to pass this on with the written word or his posted projects or Utube videos which are never complete to enable the reader/viewer to give it a go.
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Harry,
I first started looking for 12mm with 50mm cutting edge because I liked the POSTFORM Kitchentop router jig from EU. The original design required 30mm template guide + 12mm router bit with 50mm cutting edge. Postform kitchentops material are at least 40mm thick so bit with 50mm cutting edge is a must.
Recently, many POSTFORM Kitchentop templates are made for 30mm template guides + 1/2" (12.7mm) bit with 50mm cutting edge instead.

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Phil P
reuelt said:
I first started looking for 12mm with 50mm cutting edge because I liked the POSTFORM Kitchentop router jig from EU. The original design required 30mm template guide + 12mm router bit with 50mm cutting edge. Postform kitchentops material are at least 40mm thick so bit with 50mm cutting edge is a must.
Recently, many POSTFORM Kitchentop templates are made for 30mm template guides + 1/2" (12.7mm) bit with 50mm cutting edge instead.
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Hi Reuel

From somebody in the EU; jigs in the UK have long required a 30mm guide bush and use a 1/2in (12.7mm) cutter - European mainland jigs seem to require the 30mm guide bush, but a 12mm cutter (except Festool jigs). Here we generally see only the UK market (1/2in cutter) jigs. Neither combination is problematic for us as regards tooling. Take a look at this listing from Wealden Tool - product TX1412.7M Ø12 .7 (1/2in) x 52mm long is TX1412M is Ø12 x 52mm long, both on 1/2in shanks. Other manufacturers offer similar cutters, although I personally prefer the KWO Versofix removeable-tip (single flute) cutters like the K69420 for worktop mason's mitre joints. Whilst that listing doesn't show it, KWO also sell a Ø12 x 50mm long Versofix and they accommodate 12mm (metric) shanks in addition to the 1/2in British/American "standard". Because of this de facto standard here in Europe new 1/2in routers are pretty much all delivered with a 30mm guide bush in the box

These 50mm cutters are all very well, but more recently we've also had to contend wuth "super thick" honetcombed worktops at 60mm. At present the only people doing cutters for them appear to be Trend and Titman

I don't know if KWO (H Schumacher & Sohn) has an outlet in Australia, but they now have a very good distributor in the UK who's web site is here. Maybe they could tell you about Australian distribution, if any, should you be interested

Regards

Phil
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Mike said:
Reuel, for close radii a smaller guide bushing is used. Most work can be done with the larger guide bushings which make it easy to see what you are cutting and to evacuate the chips.
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Australian and probably US model of say Hitachi/Makita routers comes with 5/8" guide as STD. Those shipped to EU has a 30mm guide as STD.

Projects should promote use of either 5/8" or 30mm guides since members would already have either of them.
That is my point.
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harrysin
BRAVOGOLFTANGO said:
Of course it's what we want, it never should have been allowed to go as long as it did, could have been an interesting topic of router style preferences without the feeble minded country bashing. Bust as I said before, while it was a silly thread, it was an interesting read and could have been pretty cool if it had been done in a collaborative way whereby members would want to sincerely reply.

Learn from your mistake and carry on solider.
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Sorry, but I'm not inclined to reply to such a post from an anonymous member.
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harrysin
reuelt said:
Harry,
I first started looking for 12mm with 50mm cutting edge because I liked the POSTFORM Kitchentop router jig from EU. The original design required 30mm template guide + 12mm router bit with 50mm cutting edge. Postform kitchentops material are at least 40mm thick so bit with 50mm cutting edge is a must.
Recently, many POSTFORM Kitchentop templates are made for 30mm template guides + 1/2" (12.7mm) bit with 50mm cutting edge instead.
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I now understand why you require such a bit. Because I make my own templates and mix and match metric and Imperial guides and bits I don't have you're problem .Reuelt.
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harrysin
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reuelt said:
Australian and probably US model of say Hitachi/Makita routers comes with 5/8" guide as STD. Those shipped to EU has a 30mm guide as STD.

Projects should promote use of either 5/8" or 30mm guides since members would already have either of them.
That is my point.
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Reuelt, the guide supplied with a router is only intended as a starter, rather like the chisel set supplied with my little wood lathe, they were fine to enable me to proceed straight away, but as soon as I found satisfaction in turning I proceeded to purchase more suitable tools.

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harrysin
Thank you James, Harrison and everyone else who have expressed an opinion on this thread.
Let me once more reiterate the reasons for my threads and posts. My aim is and always has been to introduce new-comers to the wonderful exciting world of routing, demonstrating with step by step anotated photographs how I use the PLUNGE router, doing things that simply cannot be accomplished with a FIXED base router. There really isn't anything exciting about running a piece of wood accross a router table, but using the PLUNGE router hand held using home made templates, now that IS exciting and using the PLUNGE router mounted on skis, well, I remember describing the first time that I used the ski router as a similar feeling to having sex! (of course I was going by memory at the time)
I have never had expectations of converting members who have been using routers in their daily work, such people are usually fixed in their ways and happy to carry on as before and there is nothing wrong in that.
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Marcel M
harrysin said:
Marcel, that part of my post really was tongue in cheek, intended to keep up the interest in the thread.
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Understood :sold:
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Phil P said:
Hi Reuel

From somebody in the EU; jigs in the UK have long required a 30mm guide bush and use a 1/2in (12.7mm) cutter - European mainland jigs seem to require the 30mm guide bush, but a 12mm cutter (except Festool jigs). Here we generally see only the UK market (1/2in cutter) jigs. Neither combination is problematic for us as regards tooling. Take a look at this listing from Wealden Tool - product TX1412.7M Ø12 .7 (1/2in) x 52mm long is TX1412M is Ø12 x 52mm long, both on 1/2in shanks. Other manufacturers offer similar cutters, although I personally prefer the KWO Versofix removeable-tip (single flute) cutters like the K69420 for worktop mason's mitre joints. Whilst that listing doesn't show it, KWO also sell a Ø12 x 50mm long Versofix and they accommodate 12mm (metric) shanks in addition to the 1/2in British/American "standard". Because of this de facto standard here in Europe new 1/2in routers are pretty much all delivered with a 30mm guide bush in the box

These 50mm cutters are all very well, but more recently we've also had to contend wuth "super thick" honetcombed worktops at 60mm. At present the only people doing cutters for them appear to be Trend and Titman

I don't know if KWO (H Schumacher & Sohn) has an outlet in Australia, but they now have a very good distributor in the UK who's web site is here. Maybe they could tell you about Australian distribution, if any, should you be interested

Regards

Phil
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The only POSTFORM COOKTOP jig available ex-stock in Melbourne is CMT's. It still requires 12mm bit with 50mm cutting edge + 30mm guide bush. It's funny, CMT's bit catalogue here does not have any 12mm bit with 50mm cutting edge.

I suspect it is harder to make a 12mm bit on a 1/2" shank than a 13mm bit on a 1/2" shank. For 13mm, bit maker just diamond grind the two TCT of a 1/2 bit 0.15mm less & that is finished. To make a 12mm a lot more work is needed and they are reluctant to do it if there is not much demand.

If Australia is 100% metric and I have a 12mm collet, I am sure a 12mm bit will be easier to get.
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harrysin said:
Reuelt, the guide supplied with a router is only intended as a starter, rather like the chisel set supplied with my little wood lathe, they were fine to enable me to proceed straight away, but as soon as I found satisfaction in turning I proceeded to purchase more suitable tools.
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Why not just first teach them to make 2 or more collars for their existing template guide.
If Ameicans just make a 3/4" collar & a 1" collar for say their 5/8" template guide, they already can do wonders.

Or they can get something like:-
http://www.carbatec.com.au/brass-router-bushing-set_c10001
Such set includes 8 bushes to suit router bases with a 1-3/16 (30mm) hole. Outside diameters include: 5/16", 3/8", 7/16", 1/2", 39/64", 13/16", 1" and 1-3/8". Locking nut included.

1-3/8" (about 35mm) is even bigger than the Standard Porter Cable 1-3/16 hole used to mount it.


THERE IS NO NEED FOR ANY REVOLUTION. I fear the guillotine :D

See attached example:-
1" OD MDF collar for 3/4" guide bush.

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harrysin
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reuelt said:
Why not just first teach them to make 2 or more collars for their existing template guide.
If Ameicans just make a 3/4" collar & a 1" collar for say their 5/8" template guide, they already can do wonders.

Or they can get something like:-
Brass Router Bushing Set : CARBA-TEC
Such set includes 8 bushes to suit router bases with a 1-3/16 (30mm) hole. Outside diameters include: 5/16", 3/8", 7/16", 1/2", 39/64", 13/16", 1" and 1-3/8". Locking nut included.

1-3/8" (about 35mm) is even bigger than the Standard Porter Cable 1-3/16 hole used to mount it.


THERE IS NO NEED FOR ANY REVOLUTION. I fear the guillotine :D

See attached example:-
1" OD MDF collar for 3/4" guide bush.
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Adding a sleeve is quite common where one has the facilities. However, there is no point for instance in fitting a 40mm sleeve to a 12MM guide because the main advantage of a guide with a LARGE INTERNAL diameter, the ability for the collet to pass through the guide for greater depth of cut is not there.
In these shots you will see a few guides that I have added sleeves to. Whilst, as you can see, I do have an Imperial set of Brass three piece template guides which I only use when a really odd size is needed. I've mentioned many times that these guides are POTENTIALLY dangerous because, if the depth of cut isn't set so that the collet can't reach the guide, and it's easy to forget this, then the rotating collet can touch and unscrew the guide which can then fly across the shop, I know, it's happened twice to me and to other members. There really isn't a substitute for one piece template guides.

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Phil P
reuelt said:
If Americans just make a 3/4" collar & a 1" collar for say their 5/8" template guide, they already can do wonders.
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Of course, Reuel, 5/8in is 15.9mm, or 0.1mm smaller than another European standard, 16mm, which is the second common size used by some jig makers, but more especially by Trend. In woodworking what's in 0.1mm?

BTW Don't assume that oz going metric means that you will get 12mm collets - the UK is (in theory) metric but router cutters come in 1/4in, 1/2in and some 8mmm shank formats

Regards

Phil
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Mike
3
Reuelt, PC style guide bushings are available up to 1-1/2" diameter. Another option is to use the larger Oak Park/Lee Valley style which mounts in a 1-1/2" through hole and has a 1-3/4" rebate. Here is a sneak peek at the brass two piece guide bushing metric prototypes in both PC and OP/LV styles.

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ranbla
harrysin said:
I'm probably right in thinking that routers were invented in America, and like so many countries that have been first to embrace new technology, America is no different in ending up with outdated routers...
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Routers, like many other tools, are designed for a specific type of usage. Look in any professional woodworking shop and you'll find multiple, different routers; not because all but one suck, but because they all have different things they excel at more than others so you use the one that best fits your purpose. I'm about a year into my woodworking journey and I already have 3 routers and I use them all.
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difalkner
This thread is 9 years old, fwiw.
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ranbla
difalkner said:
This thread is 9 years old, fwiw.
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Is that a problem? I'm new to this forum, so I just jumped in. Sorry if it bothers someone.
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difalkner
ranbla said:
Is that a problem? I'm new to this forum, so I just jumped in. Sorry if it bothers someone.
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Not a problem at all, just pointing out that's it's old. It's often better to begin a new thread rather than revive one this old because many of the members are no longer here and sometimes the equipment has changed, been discontinued, updated, etc.
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jw2170
ranbla said:
Is that a problem? I'm new to this forum, so I just jumped in. Sorry if it bothers someone.
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Certainly not a problem, does not bother anyone.

David was only advising you that you may not get many responses.

Sometimes, we re-discover some great ideas when old posts are bumped to the top
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