HA HA Go Get 'em Harry.....while your there try sorting out the nuts/bolts/screws/washers ...what a circus...Best of British Luck .......Regards....AL:fie:

 

Not to mention material sizes like 4/4 (four quarter) which starts out as 1" rough sawn but is closer to 13/16" after both sides have surfaced & still labeled 4/4. How about 1x material that actually measures 3/4". It can get pretty confusing.

 

Totally agree with this.

 

Couldn't agree more!

 

Just a thought,

Skilled engineers, using fractions and inches, as well as a slide rule or two developed everything from modern medicine, farming, aviation and space exploration. These enlightened engineers, again using fractions and inches, even put a man on the moon.

Possibly your difficulty with tried and true measurement scales is actually a training deficiency.

 

I don't doubt for a moment what you say but here we are not professional fine furniture makers, the majority of members are like me, amateur woodworkers. Many of course are professionals in other fields, like dentistry, electronics, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering etc. But, it doesn't alter the fact that in routing, template guides and cutters are are so much easier to calculate off-sets which is an important part of advanced routing. As a matter of interest, how do YOU measure a 51/64" template guide?

 

:laugh:

I will say, it's completely pointless to hound one company, or one set of things to be completely different than everything else. No point having one tool use metric and another use imperial.

And the entire tool industry isn't going to bow to pressure from a handful of people. Waste of time. Even if they did, you'd have to go after the lumber industry next.

Measurements are measurements. It really doesn't matter what I use, as long as I use the same one from piece to piece. While it would be nice to have a base-10 system for everything, it's not going to happen. Much bigger fish to fry.

 

Chris, with routing, it doesn't matter what size the wood is, it can be sawed, go through the thickness planer to make it an exact size, whether this is Imperial or metric make no difference, but when deciding on cutter and guide sizes, they are fixed and and one has to choose the fixed sizes of these in order to calculate off-sets which for many projects can be critical, that being so, how is the average member going to deal with the likes of 1 35/64" and 51/64". Correct me if I'm wrong, but my feeling is that you haven't actually experienced plunge routing using templates, male and female.

 

What's really bad is to have a car that has both metric and SAE fasteners on it. I had a 1986 Buick and couldn't figure out why the socket didn't fit the oil drain properly. Found out it was 16 mm. Ever try to find a 16 mm socket? Sets jump from 15 to 17! Finally found one at a surplus store. Fit perfectly. Sold car, still have socket JIC (just in case).
Harry, I know what you mean but the metric/English system has been debated since the hills were built. Maybe one of these days..........?

 

16mm socket and spanner are standard in any metric set:moil:

 

We seem to deal with inches just fine, too. It's only a bit of math.

And honestly, I'd much rather see a change to liquid measurements first, if we're picking priorities.

 

I'll throw in a vote for cooking recipes that measure solids by the cup (flour, sugar, salt, etc.) instead of by weight.

And my scale has both Metric and Imperial.
I find that for baking solids, I'm a Metric girl, but liquids and measuring, Imperial all the way... 500 mg flour, 3/4 cup water, 10 mg salt, 50 mg yeast = pizza dough...

~M

 

Harry
LOL It gets even dumber. Being Canadian I grew up on the imperial system, but when I was in my twenties they converted to the metric system. I am a surveyor by trade so I like working in decmals of a foot. You can still find old drawings in chains, just to add to the confusion. I show up to work on jobs that can be either metric or imperial. When they are mechanical jobs, buildings and piping. ( I wonder about pipefitters and plumbers) every time without fail I have to convert every drawing to imperial. Carpenters especially the older guys (my age) I have to convert to imperial. The young guys are so confused they work kinda half and half. (cut me 150mm peice of 3/4 ply.) I agree with you the metric system is easier, but I still find myself converting most things to decmals of a foot because fractions are confusing and old habbits are hard to change.
I am so confused
Wayne

 

Wayne, you sound just the man to answer my serious question, how does the average amateur woodworker measure a 51/64" template guide, what instrument does one use, a steel rule, a dial vernier, a digital vernier or perhaps a micrometer?

 

Micrometer or calipers, probably.

 

I don't have issue with 32nds, 64ths or 128ths and or converting them from fraction to decimal and or back. Like anything, the more you use it the easier it is to use.

Like Knothead states, using metric and SAE on the same item is wrong. I have a few metric wrenches, sockets and allen wrenches but only for the odd metric bolt or nut that crops up.

 

When working with wood, do we really need to be accurate to a 64th ?

 

Metric vs Imperial



I make use of measuring devices which allow accuracy to 1/1000 of an inch. (my system is MicroFence based.) I rarely make cuts with so little tolerance but can if need be and by the way when I am building a guitar my cuts are much smaller than 1/64th. Usually I include 2 or 3 thousandths of inch for glue and or expansion. I do most of my larger projects outdoors under an canopy. My entire woodworking shop is completely portable too. The one thing I don't have is enough clamps. I think every woodworker complains about that but as for metric vs Imperial. I can use metric and imperial bits in most of my routers but I haven't made much use of guides so that part of this discussion is not in my realm of experience however I would use any of my multitude of measuring devices at my disposal.

 

Hi Guys

I don't like to use the imperial or the metric system when the decimal system works for both....and just about anyone can get it right off the bat..

Dewey Decimal System/ used in 135 countries....
Dewey Decimal Classification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.mathsisfun.com/numbers/fraction-decimal-chart.html
==========

 

Hi Guys

I don't like to use the imperial or the metric system when the decimal system works for both....and just about anyone can get it right off the bat..

Dewey Decimal System/ used in 135 countries....
Dewey Decimal Classification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fraction/Decimal Chart
==========

and the math is so simple....
excellent post..

 

Harry
calipers or micrometer, If it was me I would use a digital caliper (because I can't see anything else) and and try to be within a 32nd after all its only wood. I agree with Ronald if possible don't mix. because it can be really confusing.
Wayne

 

I haven't ever seen callipers, dial or digital, which read eighths, sixteenths or thirty seconds, all the imperial ones that I have are in tenths, hundredths and thousandths of an inch but guides and cutters are not. I agree that normally in woodworking, a 32nd" is neither here nor there but in routing it sometimes is. An example being a routed box with a lid that is a good fit into it, here, in order to get accuracy, I often mix metric and imperial guides/cutters.

 

Bottom line here is that everyone is right, if you're use to one system or the other, that is what makes sense to you.
I have earned a living for the last 33 years using the imperial fractional inch system and, to me, it is a simple as it gets. That said I can absolutely see the ease, simplicity and continuity, that the metric system provides. I wouldn't hesitate for a second to convert to it and I think the imperial population in general would adapt relatively quickly, and by that I mean within a generation or so. What scares the daylights out of me however, is the logistics of converting entire industries, especially construction. The more I think about it the more complicated it gets.
This is a great discussion, but like other divisive issues, I doubt many minds will get changed here. But there's always hope, isn't there Harry?

 

Tim, as I said in post #12, I'll be happy for just routers, guides and cutters to change to metric, just like the US currency and if enough people push for it you may all be surprised. Don't forget, this is nothing to do with your government, just the tool industry. The result will be new projects posted from members around the world!

 

All *I* could think of with that 51/64ths guide was it's approximately 20mm (slightly over), but 25/32nds would be closer.

Chris.. I think his point is.. Let's see.. a 1/2" bit with a 51/64" guide... the offset would be... 19/128". Now *there's* a common number!

I must be missing something...

 

Hi Guys

I have playing with and buys guides for a long time and I can not get my head around why they make and sale the 51/64" someone back when they started to make them and sale them someone must have come up with that size . I tried at one time to run it down and not one person could tell me why they put that guide in all the sets..

One DA said because they have the pocket holes in the case and they need to fill them up with something LOL

Router Accessories

I will say someone got smart and they put in a 1" guide in place for the 51/64" but not all sets come with the 1" one..

===========

 

Hi Guys

I have playing with and buys guides for a long time and I can not get my head around why they make and sale the 51/64" someone back when they started to make them and sale them someone must have come up with that size . I tried at one time to run it down and not one person could tell me why they put that guide in all the sets..

One DA said because they have the pocket holes in the case and they need to fill them up with something LOL

Router Accessories

I will say someone got smart and they put in a 1" guide in place for the 51/64" but not all sets come with the 1" one..

===========

Bob
The reason they put the 51/64 guides in the sets was because they were originally supposed to be sent to the moon & someone loaded the wrong shipment & sent the metric guides by mistake. So now they have all those extra 51/64 guides that they give for free in the sets. The cost of the sets are for all the other guides but the 51/64 guide is added in like a gift with purchase.

 

Now that does make sense James seeing that no one has come up with a better suggestion.

 

Harry,
The newer digital calibers display mm, decimals, & now fractions. General Tools is one of the companies caliper that displays this. You can find these at Home Depot here in the states. They cost around $35.00. They are stainless with a metal housing around the display. There website shows a higher price then I paid at Home Depot.

Hand Tools, Specialty Hand Tools, Woodworking Tools, Test Instruments - General Tools & Instruments

 

Harry,
The newer digital calibers display mm, decimals, & now fractions. General Tools is one of the companies caliper that displays this. You can find these at Home Depot here in the states. They cost around $35.00. They are stainless with a metal housing around the display. There website shows a higher price then I paid at Home Depot.

Hand Tools, Specialty Hand Tools, Woodworking Tools, Test Instruments - General Tools & Instruments

I'll start looking around these parts. I must confess to being intrigued when I read in the specifications: "accuracy: 0.0005" +/- 0.02mm" Talk about mixing metric and imperial!

 

Having extensively used both metric and imperial units, I can say without any doubt that metric is the way to go. There is just one unit of measure that corresponds with weight. volume and length, all based on one simple material, water. Basically, one cubic centimeter is one milliliter in volume, and one gram in weight. There is no 1/64 of an inch, 12 inches to a foot, 3 feet to a yard, 1580 yards to a mile. Larger measure and smaller measures all use the same numbers in metric, and only move the decimal place when referring to larger or smaller units. 1,000mm = 100cm = 1m = 0.001 km, etc.

With temperatures, 0ºC is freezing, 100ºC is boiling, you can't get simpler. I calorie is the amount of energy to raise one cc (cubic centimeter, gram) of water through 1 degree centigrade, another basic unit that transfers directly with different measures.

Bill, most engineers (yes, even the US ones) use metric when designing things like in the aerospace industry.

Wayne, your surveying example is a good one. I too used to do some. For others, what they to is to use decimal feet, basically metricizing imperial units. Gone were inches, and instead everything was in decimal feet (ie: 4.389 feet). I did do a couple industrial jobs where the designers had used fractional feet, and man was that ever a PITA. Try quickly adding 5'-0 9/16" + 190-'5" + 48'-9 1/4", and so on, especially before the advent of the foot-inch calculator.

Harry, my calipers measure millimeters, fraction and decimal inches. The fractional inches really have me thinking too hard, like when I measure something and it is 115/128, is that bigger than 7/8 or smaller, and if so by how many 1/128's? Too confusing for me, I just use the decimal inches or millimeters, and instantly can tell whether I am too big, or too small.

Then there is the ridiculous "nominal" measurements as James alluded to. A 2x4 is not really that size, 3/4 ply is not that either. And there is no standard to these nominal measurements, everything seems to have its own. It would be much easier to just call it what it really is.

Most of the entire world is metric, here in Canada we had to cave in with the lumber industry due to the demand of product in the US where metric wasn't to be adopted. When we were changing everything over, we did start using metric measures. I have built a house using metric, 400mm OC stud spacing, 1200x2400 sheets of ply, and so on. There still was no dimensional lumber that was in metric, so we used 38x89's (exact measurement of 2x4's) and the like. It sure was easy for the most part, but the tooling required by the lumber industry to put out both imperial and metric products was going to be too high.

All this said, I can use imperial without too many problems, but without a doubt believe that if everyone throughout the world used metric, not only would they have an easier time of measuring things, but the universality of it would be great too.

 

Well said Jim

 

Hi Harry

I have one of the fractions combo caliper that I pickup off the net for 12.oo bucks.


=====

 

Bob, if you miss seeing me on the forum for a while it will probably be because I'm searching ebay, Craig's list and Gumtree for a decent medium cost triple reading digital calliper.

 

Jim, if only I had to ability to have put it all so clearly. Thank you so much for explaining it so that everyone will be in a better position to make the decision to at least push for routers, cutters and guides to become available in metric as well as imperial.

 

Hummm---This has been interesting.

 

THESE are the digital calipers I bought. Nor as cheap as some, but I know Lee Valley will stand behind them if something goes wrong.

 

Very interesting, You buy a 2400 x 1200 mm sheet of ply,mdf or melamine here in Australia it's actual size is 2438 x 1220 mm or 8' x 4' still even after 20+ years
Harold

 

That can actually be an advantage, a couple of weeks ago I went to Bunnings for a sheet of 300 x 9mm MDF for template making, unfortunately they didn't have any, only 600 x 9mm which would have been a waste, if ripped down the centre, both pieces would have been too narrow for my jig holders and ripping one piece exactly 300 would have left a useless piece. It was fortunate then that I asked the young guy to put his measure across it, what do you know, 607mm!
Non of this of course alters the fact that metric guides and cutters have great advantages over imperial. (I don't miss an opportunity to mention this, do I)