Jerry, if this very old el-cheapo GMC jointer is capable of perfect 45° slots I can't imagine any machine that isn't. Perhaps these shots will be of some assistance.
Using Biscuits With Mitered Corners
Several days ago I asked about and/or talked about my interest in learning about using dowels, One of the places that I am thinking of using them is for jointing mitered joints such as in a shadow box project. In other words the miter corners are such as you might use in the construction of the corner of a box and not in the application of a frame where the workpieces lay flat as in a picture frame for example.
Anyway, Harry posted to my thread said that he liked to use biscuits and I responded that I have used biscuits in that type of joint. With all of that said, my question to Harry and others that use biscuits for this type of joint is this. My biscuit cutter works best when cutting the slots in the workpieces with cutter setting on a 90 degree edge and not so well on 45's. the only way that I have been able to cut the slots for the biscuits is to put two workpieces back to back so the the ends of the workpieces
form a 90 degree shape and this allows the cutter to have the 90 degree profile that is required to make the cuts. Hope you follow what I'm attempting to describe.
My question is that I'm wondering if there is another and/or a better way to cut the slots for the biscuits in such a joint? Because this approach is a little cumbersome has caused me to think about the possibility of using dowels instead of biscuits but don't kow if there is a doweling jig that could be used or not, seems like I saw a demo of a jig for this application, but can't seem to find it again. Sooo, if anybody has any ideas and/or thoughts along this line of thinking, I'd like to hear from you. Thanks,
Jerry
Anyway, Harry posted to my thread said that he liked to use biscuits and I responded that I have used biscuits in that type of joint. With all of that said, my question to Harry and others that use biscuits for this type of joint is this. My biscuit cutter works best when cutting the slots in the workpieces with cutter setting on a 90 degree edge and not so well on 45's. the only way that I have been able to cut the slots for the biscuits is to put two workpieces back to back so the the ends of the workpieces
form a 90 degree shape and this allows the cutter to have the 90 degree profile that is required to make the cuts. Hope you follow what I'm attempting to describe.
My question is that I'm wondering if there is another and/or a better way to cut the slots for the biscuits in such a joint? Because this approach is a little cumbersome has caused me to think about the possibility of using dowels instead of biscuits but don't kow if there is a doweling jig that could be used or not, seems like I saw a demo of a jig for this application, but can't seem to find it again. Sooo, if anybody has any ideas and/or thoughts along this line of thinking, I'd like to hear from you. Thanks,
Jerry
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After some back and forth via e-mail with Harry who assured me that there was a way to make cuts in question with my biscuit cutter, I found that the cutter can indeed be set up to make the cuts. I am so thankful for help from members on this forum, in this case, one of our dear friend from "Down Under". Thanks Harry.
Jerry
Jerry
Is tis method usable for compound miters in 11/16 stock?
I'll Have To Think On It Mike
I've have not learning to cut compound miters in any easy way yet, so I'll have give your question some thought. Sounds like an interesting challenge, I'll get back to you on eit.
Jerry
Mike,Is tis method usable for compound miters in 11/16 stock?
I've have not learning to cut compound miters in any easy way yet, so I'll have give your question some thought. Sounds like an interesting challenge, I'll get back to you on eit.
Jerry
I see no reason why not.Is tis method usable for compound miters in 11/16 stock?
I'm still thinking about the compound miter issue. Right now I invision the normal 45 degree cut which is one of the cuts on the compound miter cut, but the other angle might only be 15 to 20 degrees which might require a similar jig but made at the lesser angle so that the lesser angle allows the edge of that cut to lay at 90 degrees to the slot cutter in order for the slot to be square to the face of that lesser angle, then all should work. Just seeing this in my haed as how to do it, am I missing anything, other than how to make the second jig that is used for the second or lesser angle, gotta work on that yet.
Jerry
Jerry
I believe, Jerry, a compound mitre is not the same as a simple angle (not 45°).
A compound mitre has the face at an angle to the table .
A compound mitre has the face at an angle to the table .
How about a translation in plain English Jerry!I'm still thinking about the compound miter issue. Right now I invision the normal 45 degree cut which is one of the cuts on the compound miter cut, but the other angle might only be 15 to 20 degrees which might require a similar jig but made at the lesser angle so that the lesser angle allows the edge of that cut to lay at 90 degrees to the slot cutter in order for the slot to be square to the face of that lesser angle, then all should work. Just seeing this in my haed as how to do it, am I missing anything, other than how to make the second jig that is used for the second or lesser angle, gotta work on that yet.
Jerry
Harry,How about a translation in plain English Jerry!
Let me see if I can do what you ask. I will start by just assuming that anybody that cares about what I'm talking about already knows what a compound miter cut is and so I do not then have to explain how to make one or what it is.
In my first attempt to explain what I am talking about I used a term "lesser angle". What I meant by that term refers to the area at the ends of the four workpieces where the slots for the biscuits are to be cut are not square with the faces of the workpieces, they are at a slight angle slightly less than 45 degree, thus less than 45 degree and why I called the angle a lesser angle. Consequently a jig for cutting slots into an edge that is 45 degrees to the face of the workpiece will not work when cutting slots into a "lesser angle" and a second jig needs to be constructed if you want the slots for biscuits to be cut at the proper angle. Of course, since the slots cut for biscuits are such that the bisucits fit tight in them, there is probably enough wiggle room to pretty much just off set the piece a little by hand so that the joint still works out. Sure turned into a lot of back and forth about may be a moot point and I should not have even gotten myself into the situation.
Is that a better explanation Harry? Hope so, and maybe I have mopped up the spilled milk so to speak.
Jerry
I'm afraid not Jerry, as I've told you, I'm no genius, I can instantly understand pictures, that is why all my posted projects have detailed photographs. Why not, when you have time, do a small demonstration Jerry, I'm sure that I can't be the only dim wit around these parts!
This is interesting, I don't understand photos very well but can, at least to some degree, not as well as I would like to, but better than photos with text. I'd like to know if my description of the compound miter issue in regard to adding biscuits is as confusing to others as it is to Harry. I really need to know the answer to this for future attempts to communicate.I'm afraid not Jerry, as I've told you, I'm no genius, I can instantly understand pictures, that is why all my posted projects have detailed photographs. Why not, when you have time, do a small demonstration Jerry, I'm sure that I can't be the only dim wit around these parts!
Jerry
Jerry, I am having trouble following the discussion also. I do better with a photo or a diagram. If you have a diagram with all the terms labeled on it, then that makes the discussion much easier.
Regardless of that, I think I can answer the question. In a compound miter cut you have an angle cut across your board that is not vertical but is also angled. If you set the fence on your biscuit joiner to match that angle (the one not vertical), then you should be able to biscuit them together. When I say set your fence to match the angle I really mean set the fence so that the biscuit joiner is 90 degrees to the off vertical face.
Regardless of that, I think I can answer the question. In a compound miter cut you have an angle cut across your board that is not vertical but is also angled. If you set the fence on your biscuit joiner to match that angle (the one not vertical), then you should be able to biscuit them together. When I say set your fence to match the angle I really mean set the fence so that the biscuit joiner is 90 degrees to the off vertical face.
Charles, this whole thing started out due to my biscuit cutter not having an adjustable fence. It's the Frued JS 100 with a fixed position fence. I'm really not very experienced with making mitered cuts but what I am thinking is that it is done one way on a chop saw or a miter saw but done another way on a TS. In order to get the cut to be a compound miter I use a wedge shaped piece of wood that is about the same length as is the workpiece that I'm cutting with the compound mitered ends. The wedge lay along the edge of the fence so that the work piece, when laying on the wedge is tilted up off of the table on the edge next to the fence. The miter gauge is still set at 45 but the fact that the workpiece isn't laying flat during the cut the result is similar to a compound miter that is cut on a miter saw. I need to except the fact that I am not very good at at describing these things so I will try to refrain from it in the future. I have learned a little more about myself dut to this thread, that's not a bad thing it's just a matter of facing reality and we need to do that from time to time.Jerry, I am having trouble following the discussion also. I do better with a photo or a diagram. If you have a diagram with all the terms labeled on it, then that makes the discussion much easier.
Regardless of that, I think I can answer the question. In a compound miter cut you have an angle cut across your board that is not vertical but is also angled. If you set the fence on your biscuit joiner to match that angle (the one not vertical), then you should be able to biscuit them together. When I say set your fence to match the angle I really mean set the fence so that the biscuit joiner is 90 degrees to the off vertical face.
Jerry
Jerry, if you use that same wedge on your router table with a slot cutter the size you need you will be able to biscuit the pieces together. I would clamp stop blocks on either side of the router bit so that the piece stays centered on the cutter and you'll need to get the fence and bit height set correctly and then it is just a matter of pushing your board and the wedge into the cutter.
Everyone's brain processes information differently. Many times when someone asks a question on the forum about how to do something you'll see several different methods suggested for doing the job. The method that the poster chooses is the one that makes sense to them. It isn't always necessarily the one that I would choose but they feel it is the one that will work for them. In other words, not wrong, just different. You don't respond well to pictures, I don't respond well to text.
Oh yeah, you should be able to use the wedge with your biscuit joiner too. Just put the wedge and your piece on it on a bench and set the height on your BJ to where you want it and push it into the end of your board. It might be a three handed job but it is doable.
Everyone's brain processes information differently. Many times when someone asks a question on the forum about how to do something you'll see several different methods suggested for doing the job. The method that the poster chooses is the one that makes sense to them. It isn't always necessarily the one that I would choose but they feel it is the one that will work for them. In other words, not wrong, just different. You don't respond well to pictures, I don't respond well to text.
Oh yeah, you should be able to use the wedge with your biscuit joiner too. Just put the wedge and your piece on it on a bench and set the height on your BJ to where you want it and push it into the end of your board. It might be a three handed job but it is doable.
Charles,Jerry, if you use that same wedge on your router table with a slot cutter the size you need you will be able to biscuit the pieces together. I would clamp stop blocks on either side of the router bit so that the piece stays centered on the cutter and you'll need to get the fence and bit height set correctly and then it is just a matter of pushing your board and the wedge into the cutter.
Everyone's brain processes information differently. Many times when someone asks a question on the forum about how to do something you'll see several different methods suggested for doing the job. The method that the poster chooses is the one that makes sense to them. It isn't always necessarily the one that I would choose but they feel it is the one that will work for them. In other words, not wrong, just different. You don't respond well to pictures, I don't respond well to text.
Oh yeah, you should be able to use the wedge with your biscuit joiner too. Just put the wedge and your piece on it on a bench and set the height on your BJ to where you want it and push it into the end of your board. It might be a three handed job but it is doable.
What you just wrote makes a lot sense to me, thanks for the enlightenment. I guess that you somehow figured out to some degree what I was trying so hard to communicate to Harry about and just not getting through, but your reminding me that we process information differenatly.
The conept of using the wedge to make the compound miter cuts on the TS came from Mark Mueller of Incra Tools. When my brother and I tried it our biggest problem was clamping the frame together after making the compound cuts. On our first attempt to do so it was almost impossible without using biscuits. Right now I don't recall what we finally did but we did get it together and it made a very nice frame. '
Along with the problem of clamping the picture frame together for the glue up with is the issue that the edges in the back of the frame are not flat and cutting the rabbet for the picture, mattes, and glass takes some thinking but I sure don't want to attempt to get into that subject due to my problems with "spalnin stuff" like that. You will have to figure it our for youself if you don't already know what I'm talking about.
Jerry
I do understand the rabetting problem. You could do it 2 ways. One would be to assemble the frame, let the glue dry, and then rout it with a rabbeting bit on the RT. You would probably have to chisel the corners out.
The other way would be on the table saw by angling the blade. The angle will either be the same one that you tilted to get the compound angle or its compliment (90 degrees minus the 1st angle is the compliment). If the angle is say 20 degrees you obviously can't angle the saw 70 degrees so it would be one cut with the board flat and the other one with the board standing. If you are using the wedge and you're not sure what the angle is just put it against the saw blade after you cut it and tilt the saw until it matches.
The other way would be on the table saw by angling the blade. The angle will either be the same one that you tilted to get the compound angle or its compliment (90 degrees minus the 1st angle is the compliment). If the angle is say 20 degrees you obviously can't angle the saw 70 degrees so it would be one cut with the board flat and the other one with the board standing. If you are using the wedge and you're not sure what the angle is just put it against the saw blade after you cut it and tilt the saw until it matches.
Charles,I do understand the rabetting problem. You could do it 2 ways. One would be to assemble the frame, let the glue dry, and then rout it with a rabbeting bit on the RT. You would probably have to chisel the corners out.
The other way would be on the table saw by angling the blade. The angle will either be the same one that you tilted to get the compound angle or its compliment (90 degrees minus the 1st angle is the compliment). If the angle is say 20 degrees you obviously can't angle the saw 70 degrees so it would be one cut with the board flat and the other one with the board standing. If you are using the wedge and you're not sure what the angle is just put it against the saw blade after you cut it and tilt the saw until it matches.
I'm pretty sure that we cut the rabbets on the router, I'm certain because my brother did it, but I sort of recall that he over run the router cuts so there were no corners to use the chistel on, didn't look really great but the back is not what one sees when the frame is ona a wall. I had a photo of it for a long time but must have finally deleted it, I wanted to post it but can't find it now.
jerry
Thank you all, gentlemen. MK
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
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