Welcome to the forum, Clay! Add your first name to your profile so it shows in the side panel. Add your location, as well. That often helps us to help you.

What space and power do you have available? The footprint of the machine needs to be considered along with the bed size. Some 4x4 machines are pretty large and others just slightly larger than the bed.

Of the ones you mentioned, and budget fitting, I would get the CAMaster. The handful of guys I know who have that machine really like them.

Do you have the supporting woodshop to prepare your stock for cutting on the CNC?

David

 

woodshop not sure if that is the name of some software

if that is not the name of some software no i am going to try to fit it in a room in the house

why is the camaster better ?

can the camaster make more finer detail ? this is mostly only thing i care about

the wholesaler that sells the IEC1212 CNC Router $3,199, has a 4x8 foot IEP1325 machine that has better specs for details than the IEC1212
and it is $4,999

there is a ebay seller selling a 1325 4x8 foot for $3,777
if you google "1325 router furniture cabinet door machine on sale free ship for May Day Holiday"

i dont understand what makes camaster a better deal for someone like me that just wants to learn how make art pictures out of wood to sell

 

Most of those cheaper machines ship from china, and shipping (and tariffs) is not included in those prices. Shipping can be a significant additional cost (there is usually no shipping included on any of the machines prices). They will also come with little to no documentation, training or support. Depending on your experience and knowledge, these can be very important. Those with "free" shipping is usually only to the nearest ocean port - you will be responsible for picking up from port (and paying any tariffs due) and shipment to your location. Not too bad if you live in Long Beach, more of an issue if you live in Denver.

The automation technologies machine is one of the Chinese machines, but imported by a US company that will provide documentation and support.

CAMaster is US built, well documented and well supported, with factory training available, which is why it has been recommended.

There are other options in the price range, including shopsabre or shopbot. One option you may wish to consider is a kit machine from CNC Router Parts or Fineline Automation. You would need to assemble yourself, but they are good machines at a lower price.

Note that 3D carvings are very time consuming, especially one anywhere near the 4 x 4 size. They can easily take 20 hours or more. The more detail you want (and the smaller bit used to cut it) the longer it takes. Here the speed of the machine can play a big role, a machine that can 3d carve at 400ipm will take much less time than one that can only do it at 100ipm. Do not be mislead by the quoted "rapid" speeds, try to find cutting speeds.

When David asked about the rest of the shop, it was referring to tools to prepare large glue ups (need to be able to joint and plane and cut boards to size before glue ups, or before putting onto CNC. You will also need dust collection (a vacuum won't be enough). Also most of those machines require 220V power. Most people would not want them in the house (probably can't fit through anything smaller than a garage door anyway). Off the machine, you will need to sand and apply a finish to create a finished carving.

How are you intending to create the artwork (designs) to cut? Some of the software to create 3d models runs $1600 and up, and there is a signifiant learning curve. Between the time it takes to create the files, and the time it takes to run them, such carvings must often sell for a considerable cost to represent a reasonable return.

My DIY machine has a cutting area of 49" x 60" and cost me $2800. You will not get anywhere near that price buying commercially.

 

First, Welcome to the Router Forums.

I'm also in Texas.

The IEC1212 CNC Router $3,199.00 is sold by a company in Pennsylvania but they are made in Asia and shipped from Asia. I contacted their tech support (they only have email support). You will have to pay import duties and taxes plus the $700 shipping cost for this unit (not the $10 shipping cost they show, that is if you buy 25 of them they will only charge $10 shipping for each one) to get it to the US and may have additional shipping fees from the port of entry to your location. They say they will issue an invoice with reduced cost shown so you can pay less import taxes and duties, THIS IS ILEGAL and I would not want to get involved with any company that would do something like that. Tech support was in broken English so I question if they could answer any questions with a reasonable answer. I am attaching the picture of the machine as they show it on their site. If you notice there is only one gantry upright support. I ask their tech support person if this is how that model CNC is made and they said yes it just has the one upright arm. I don't really think that is how they build this model but that is how tech support says the machine is built. on the discription page for this model it says it has a Two Year Limited Warranty but on their Terms and Conditions page they say One year warranty and "Should a return for repair be necessary, buyer need ship it back to our warehouse at Asia at own cost. The unit must be insured for the full retail value. If the unit is shipped by a non-approved company or is not in original packaging when it arrives, IEHK reserves the right to refuse the shipment.

I think I would really bypass this one!

 

Methinks this is going to be an interesting thread to follow. :smile:

 

Automation Technologies KL-1212 CNC Router 48 x 48 inch $6,199

There are several reasons that this machine cost more that the IEC1212 CNC Router $3,199.00

This machine is imported to the USA and taxes and duties are already piad for and I'm sure they do it legaly. This is a rack and pinion machine with Nema 34 steppers. It has a gantry height of 8", twice as much as the other machine. It runs on the well known well documented Mach 3 control software not the PCI, Ncstudio that is poorly documented. This one has a vaccum table built in and the other does not. It has a one year USA parts warranty. They have a USA based phone tech support as well as email support.

So this machine is worth a lot more as far as I'm concerened.

 

The JCUT-1212 $2950 on ebay free shipping from china

Has a 6" gantry height.
It has small stepper motors so that limits speed and torque.
It uses NcStudio or you can pay an extra $400 for motion a controller that will run on Mach 3 (that does not include the Mach 3 software or pay $500 for DPS control.
For software, it lists Type 3 (not sure what that is), ArtCut and ArtCam which are probably pirated copies that no telling how old the versions are, there will be no support for the software.
The spindle is a 1.5kw with an ER 11 collet and that limits you to 1/4" bits and will be underpowered for some projects.
You have the cost of shipping to your location from the seaport and cost of taxes and other fees. You will be importing it so you will also need to get a broker to help you get it into the USA and will have to pay his fee(this is probably required for the first CNC also). The second machine will not require a broker or that additional fee.
They also offer to give you an invoice lying about how much you paid for it so you can save on the import fees. This is against the law and you could get in a lot of trouble you don't need.

Again I would avoid this machine.

 

Pilot Pro 5050 DIY Kit $6,100.00 or assembled for $6,550
5050 Stand $1400.00

This is a lighter weight machine.
Small Nema 23 stepper motors will limit feed rates.
Set up to use a trim router (Bosch Colt). They do offer a 2.2kw spindle but it might add to flex in the system.
They don't say what software they include so I would say it is probably free open source software or limited trials. I would not consider it in the value of the CNC.
They say Z axis of 7" to 12" for their machines. That's interesting. They also show those pictures of someone walking and hanging on the gantry. I would not one of the ones they did that to.
They have several add-ons available that will just add to the cost.

To me it is pricy for what it is but that is my opinion.

 

shark HD4 extended $4,999.99

A lot of plastic that just adds to the flex of the machine.
Small Nema 23 stepper motors, they are slightly bigger than the original HD steppers but still limit feeds. Not really a problem because you have to work within the flex limits of the CNC, they are just limited.
Several people have reported that theirs was out of square from the factory and I have squared 3 of them for my customers and have one more to do for another customer. They are not checking the alignment at the factory to let that many get past them.
Two of the new ones I have worked on were missing screws, one had 2 screws missing in the router mount, the other one and a screw missing in the router mount and one missing on the gantry plate. Again a quality control problem.
Tech support is hit or miss. They know the standard answers but have problems with the more technical questions. I have an older Shark and have to get registration codes for all my equipment every year. They always send some bad codes the first time and I have to go through the process again to get codes that allow me to use my equipment. I actually have 3 of their machines, I won't buy another one.
Proprietary control software. You could build your own controller to get passed that proprietary software but you would still have a machine with a lot of flex and slow speeds.

One plus is part of that cost is for the Vectric VCarve Pro software.

Like I said I would not buy another one but I will say that if you stay within the limits of the machine they will do a decent job.

 

Camaster Stinger II SR-44 Starting at $12,995

This is a good choice for many reasons.
The only thing I don't like about the Camaster Stinger II SR-44 is the cheap MDF spoil board with t slots installed. The t-slots pull out easily. they need a good spoil board.
They use WinCNC control software and come with the computer and monitor.
They come with Vectric VCarve Pro design software.
They come with a 3.5HP router- I do recommend upgrading to a spindle but the router will work fine.
Rack and pinion on the X and Y with ball screw on the Z.
High feed rates to help reduce cut times.
Well build heavy machine.
They have great customer service and tech support.

This would be a good one if you want precision and speed and have the room and money in your budget.

 

Laguna Swift CNC Router 4′ x 4′ 3HP $13,645

Uses HHC controller, I prefer Mach3, Mach4 or WinCNC but that is personal taste.
good feeds and speeds. Well build machine
Good 3HP spindle
Rack and pinion on the X and Y with ball screws on the Z.
I have heard mixed thoughts on their customer service and tech support.
To me they are a bit pricey compared to the Camaster Stinger.

Decent machine but I would go for the Camaster first.

 

Axiom Elite Series AR16 ELITE $13,999

I'm not too familiar with the Elite series but the Pro+ Series is a good entry level machine
The frame on this one is welded steel but the gantry supports and some of the other parts are structural cast aluminum, this is not a problem but does cut down on the weight that helps to limit vibration.
It does have an industrial controller so if you have problems their customer support will probably be the best place to check for solutions.
Ball screws on X,Y and Z so should be good for accuracy but will limit how heavy of cuts you can make.
Has decent feed rates but not as good as the Camaster or Laguna.
The 3HP spindle is a good spindle.
I have heard nothing but good things about their customer service and tech support.
I consider it a little on the pricey side compared to the Camaster and Laguna


I think I would pass on this one also but is is a nice machine

 

Okay clayclay you have my opinions about the machines you posted.

When David asked about a supporting woodshop he was referring to a shop full of tools to machine lumber to use for your blanks. If you don't have any tools then you will have to pay more for wood ready to be cut.

I think you are worrying too much about the precision of the machine for doing 3D carving art projects. You want the most precision for doing parts that need to fit together. 3D is somewhat forgiving and doesn't require really tight tolerances. You can do good 3D projects on entry model machines if you work within the limits of the machine. Even A good solid commercial CNC in the $100,000 range can be pushed past its limits and produces poor quality work.

You say you are going to fit it in a room in your house, have you thought about how you would get one of these fully assembled heavy machines into your house? Do you have the power required for the machine in your house where you want to put the machine? I think you need to be looking at a kit machine.

Check out the CNCrouterparts Pro series machines here PRO4848 4' x 4' CNC Router Kit | CNCRouterParts This would be my choice and I am considering buying one to replace my current machines.

I think the PRO4848 4' x 4' CNC Router Kit with the Plug and Play NEMA 34 CNC Control System would be a good choice. The 2.2 kW Plug and Play Spindle / VFD System would be a good addition to the system but you could use a router or add your own spindle if you think you are capable of wiring it correctly.

I think this is the route you should consider if you really want to put it in your house. Really boils down to available space, available power and your budget for the machine the needed design and control software.

 

...Check out the CNCrouterparts Pro series machines here PRO4848 4' x 4' CNC Router Kit | CNCRouterParts This would be my choice and I am considering buying one to replace my current machines.

I think the PRO4848 4' x 4' CNC Router Kit with the Plug and Play NEMA 34 CNC Control System would be a good choice. The 2.2 kW Plug and Play Spindle / VFD System would be a good addition to the system but you could use a router or add your own spindle if you think you are capable of wiring it correctly.

Does @clayclay know how to put these together? There's plenty on here for help on that.
I wish I knew otherwise I would have bought one of those and saved some bucks.

Oh let's not forget ShopSabre since we mentioned Camaster

SS 23

SS RC4

 

Wow, Mike! Those are very good reviews and write-ups on the machines in question. We should parse the review threads into a sticky and add to it at some point. Good job!

David

 

These were just quick observations and a little first-hand information but it would be good to have a sticky that really reflected the differences between the most available machines. like on the first one I did take the time to contact their tech support to see what kind of knowledge the tech actually had. They are one of the enter the question and then get a standard answer to give the customer. Remember they said that machine only has one gantry support arm!

It would be a very time-consuming effort to list all the ones that are out now. Some of the Chinese machines are good machines but a lot of them are cheaply made and have a lot of hidden costs involved to get them to your location. The ones that are already imported by a broker and tested already have the hidden costs taken care of and some of them have USA support in place. I would not get involved with any company that tells you they will help you cheat on the import taxes and other fees by providing you with false documentation, remember you are signing your name on federal documents that are falsified and could lose everything you own if they did take you to court.

Okay I'm off my soapbox for now.

 

I had to purchase one for my program at work. so as many others did here, I studied and researched and made lists and comparison charts and....

Mike did a great job! when comparing prices, make sure you are comparing apple to apples... as one upgrade here can jump the price to a new level there.

since I was new to the cnc world, I went with camaster ($40k+) because of the extremely helpful support forum they have.

if it were my money, and I already knew about cnc's I would likely look to spend less money elsewhere (more research, lists...)

don't be afraid to look for used, as many folks buy them and find the learning curve too steep, next thing you know paint cans and lawn chairs are stacked on top of it... read it on the forums more than once.

remember the motto - you get what you pay for. "4 Foot by 4 Foot Hi Accuracy Hi Repeatability Machine" won't be cheap...

 

I got a plug and play from Probotix just to see if it was something I would really get into. It is a learning curve!!! After getting a better understanding of things I got CNCRP Pro kit. It carves a whole lot faster, but at over twice the price. Support and parts availability ARE IMPORTANT!!!! Especially support. Both these companies are US based and answer their phones and emails in English. Right now I'm running both machines.

As mentioned before, 3d carving is a slow process.

 

Thanks for all the information everyone

I wanted to make at least 1 post to get info from a cnc community before buying a machine
Now I am leaning towards buying the
Automation Technologies KL-1212 CNC Router 48 x 48 inch, T slot, Vacuum Table, Helical Rack and Pinion

No one is going to be using the extra room in the house I would like to try to tilt the machine somehow to get it in there

CNC routerparts PRO4848 kit I am not too sure about my capabilities to put a machine together properly

$4,275 CNC routerparts PRO4848 kit
$2,575 Plug and Play NEMA 34 CNC Control System
-------------------------------------------------
$6850
then i would still need a spindle the PRO4848 kit might be the best deal for a expert with cnc machines but I am not wanting to put together a kit because I am new to cnc

After asking this forum and all the info Mike gave so far the Automation Technologies KL-1212 is what seems like the best deal for me since the Camaster $12,995 is out of my budget

 

No one is going to be using the extra room in the house I would like to try to tilt the machine somehow to get it in there

I do think it would be a decent machine but I do not have any first-hand experience with one. BUT there are things I think you need to consider before you take the leap

Remember this machine weighs in at approximately 1000 pounds And the as shipped size is 82" x 78" x 57".

You will probably have to take it apart to get it in the house (will this void the warranty?) or have to take down a wall or have an over-sized door or two installed. Also, will the floor in the house support the weight? Is the room really big enough for the machine and any other things like a dust collector, sanding equipment and possibly a small workbench with at least some hand tools to process the lumber?

There are a lot of other things you should look at before you commit to buying it.

 

Mike is correct that machine is not going to fit into the house

But I have a large covered back patio, could get the machine back there would have to remove some wood rails and put them back

Patio has a tin roof patio is connected to house and is about 20 feet wide and 30 feet long there are power outlets, only thing I am worried about is if the machine being outside will damage the machine, we live north of Houston we dont live near the ocean where metal seems to corrode easier

I got a car cover to cover the machine that might help

Do you guys think the machine would be damaged from the elements over time ?

 

That CNC was not meant to be housed in an open environment. I think you would have problems with humidity causing corrosion and you might have to spend more time maintaining it than using it to cut wood. Every time it rains and the wind blows it into the patio you will need to clean it up quickly, you can't just say I'll do it this weekend. If you could close-in the part of the patio you want to use for the machine I think that would help. Sometimes things like the car cover you mention might attract and hold moisture and actually cause more problems.

Just remember this is a major investment and you will want to take care of it.

 

I think this may answer a few of your questions

https://www.routerforums.com/cnc-routing/135957-cncrouterparts-pro-attempt-build.html

Love the CNCRP Pro 4848 machine. Took a lot from several people to help me get it up and running. The build was fairly easy. Getting it to cut things took a bit of an effort. Having a reasonable understanding on most of the principles and knowing pretty much what to expect, as well as gaining some experience, helped a whole lot. I'm glad I got the Probotix to start. It's more than paid for itself. It's not a pro machine, but not just a hobby machine either. I call it a serious hobby machine. And they have support, as well as several members here that have them and can be of help.

 

I don't do CNC, but I teach marketing to doctors, so I have written up some guidelines for making money with a CNC machine. It is possible, but you'll want to spend a lot of time learning to use it effectively before you can expect to produce usable/salable goods.

You may be able to enclose the outside space, but unless you love to work in Texas heat and humidity, you'll want to have AC for the space, which is expensive if you don't have insulation. Looks like you'll want to have 220 installed, which is probably going to mean hiring an electrician so you get the phasing right.

Shop tools. You can't expect to use stuff from Home Depot. Their goods are often warped, twisted or worse and need flattening. You'll need a table saw of some sort to just cut pieces to size before you glue up several pieces to create a panel. This requires clamps and at the very least, a couple of large hand planes. A planer allows you to remove wood to a specific thickness and to have it be flat enough to use for CNC. There are workarounds for some of the other tools many of our CNC folks already had.

You'll need to locate a supplier of good wood and select it very carefully. Wood from such a supplier will be extra thick so you can mill it down. If you don't have the right tools, you will have to learn to make jigs to do what the missing tools will do.

Dust collection is super important. Carving produces an enormous amount of fluffy chips or sawdust. This is extremely dangerous stuff because once the fine stuff gets into you lungs, it doesn't come out completely. Good dust collection adds several hundred dollars to your setup cost, and you will have to buy a number of connectors and hoses to hook it up. Harbor Freight has a decent unit for about $200 on sale, but add more for the accessories.

You are taking on something that is challenging, but doable. But it will require patience, reading, watching videos, calling for help, posting questions on this forum. BTW, one of our CNC genius designers, Gaffboat wrote a beginners guide to the terminology of CNC. It is available on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Newbies-Guid...ll_4?keywords=Professor+Henry+CNC+book&qid=1556759187&s=gateway&sr=8-4-fkmrnull ($15).

You might look up Gaffboat's profile and look at some of his posts. His design work is great. Another member, Scottart, is a CNC master and does amazing commercial carving work and his decoration, painting, finishing are wonderful. He is in Alaska and is offering a painting class on using CNC. Classes are available here and there for CNC, but I think you'll have to do some research. But you should choose your software first!

Attached is a piece on making a living with CNC, which is mostly on marketing, based on how I would do it. For a little extra money, a moderate production machine is OK, but if you really want to make a go of CNC, you need a fairly high production machine. If you are an artist and want to make art pieces with it, a moderate speed machine might be fine. Looking forward to reading about your process.

 

that treadmill has been out there for many years and no rust on its metal parts, that window ac unit is rusted alot but it was there for a long time before we had a patio and got directly rained on for years, i need to move that treadmill and table, it was raining while i took the pictures or else i would of step out of the patio to take a picture

Automation Technologies KL-1212 CNC Router 48 x 48 inch $6,199 , would this machine be able to have a 4th axis log carver attachment later on if i wanted to add it ?

and why pay $6,199 when you can pay more than twice as much for the same thing
digitalwoodcarver
dot
com/cnc-units/dwc-4848-cnc-unit $12,810.00

after i buy mine for $6,199 i could create a website with some stupid name like theextramostbestestcomputerizedwoodcarver buy now only $11,999

is there is any reason someone should buy a digital wood caver machine or one of their smaller machines ?
digitalwoodcarver
.
com/cnc-units

 

Just a quick glance and about the only difference I see is the Digital Carver machine comes with a 2.2kW air cooled spindle with ER25 collet where the Automation Technology machine comes with a 2.2kW water cooled spindle and ER20 collet. But you are correct - it appears Digital River has a serious profit margin, at least relative to AT.

David

 

I wonder if that ER 25 collet is correct for that 2.2kw spindle.

 

It is really hard to tell you about a rotary because the wiring download shows it to have 3 drivers for the machine, so that provided information is wrong. The Y axis will be dual rack and pinion drive and require 2 drivers, one for the Y axis and one for the slave. The picture of the open control box shows 4 drivers as there should be, XYZ and the slave. Not knowing what control breakout board they are actually using I can't say if an extra driver can be added to operate a rotary axis.

You can still, at a later date use a rotary axis with that machine just like it is. You would have to disconnect your X axis and use that driver to run the rotary axis and wrap all your Y values. And you would need to create a separate Mill profile for Mach3 so it could drive the rotary axis correctly.

The only way around this would be to add a new driver but as stated earlier you might also have to change the breakout board. They just don't provide enough information.

If you are really interested in that machine you should contact them beforehand because they may offer an extra driver for a rotary axis at extra cost and that might require a different control card. If done at the time of purchase it might save a lot of money and hassle later down the road.

Now it is up to you to contact them and ask them all your questions and see what their answers are.

 

@MEBCWD Wow,mike, you really came up with some detailed information. What a great run down on the different machines, even I could understand most of it, and I don't know anything about CNC until now. Thanks for taking the time to make the comparison of all the machines.
Herb

 

i have been thinking about how much better it would be not to have to go outside in the heat or cold to use a cnc machine and i think if i went with a 48 inch by 48 inch cutting area machine than it might be best to get a machine that i can take apart and move

i started thinking about the rockler store just a few miles from my home that sells shark, axiom, powermatic

i did email automation technologies about what Mike said and asked them to take a look at Mikes post at the top of page 4 of this thread and sent them a link to this thread in the email and they emailed me back and they said



"We can make a 4 axis machine with 4 axis
If you use the current machine, you need to add a stepper driver and 4 axis rotation device"



I emailed them back and asked how much extra would the cost be and they messaged me back and said



"We have a 4 axis machine in production

You can ship to you directly from China

It is better for you,

You will get in 45 days

It is only $700 more"



I was considering calling them on the phone and get more information and asking them what does "You can ship to you directly from China" mean
but i guess it does not matter if i am thinking about a option i could fit in the house again like the pro kit Mike mentioned or a smaller axiom machine from the rockler store a few miles from me where i could look at the different models and measure their size

i look at the rockler web site for most popular axiom machines
rockler
.com/power-tools/cnc-machines/axiom?product_list_order=most_popular

and the Axiom AutoRoute 8 Pro+ CNC seems to be the most popular, i guess it does not come with a table maybe i could fit something like that in the house thru a window

i might go to the rockler store what do you all think about this machine rockler
.com/axiom-autoroute-8-pro-cnc
or anyone think there is a different model i should think about buying from rockler ?

the pro4848 kit Mike told me about i am still considering that also but maybe a good smaller machine from a seller a few miles away is what would be good for a noob like me

what do you all think ?