What kind of bit do I need?

665 Views 19 Replies 7 Participants Last post by mwigington, 19 h ago

mwigington

Discussion Starter · 11 d ago

4

Good afternoon, I am in need of some help as I don't know what kind of bit I need to produce this type of profile (the inside middle groove. Is that a special bit made for that particular type of furniture or how they do molding? Or maybe it is a two bit process? I don't know, but I am needing to repair this piece for a waterfall dresser my wife and I are restoring. The other side is broken off and I to replicate it.

Thank you for your help!

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Oscar36

· #2 · 11 d ago

Might want see if this profile is close enough and then the fun starts on finding one that is the right size.

www.amanatool.com

49152 Matching Corner Round/Cove 5/16 Radius x 1-1/4 Dia x 21/32 x 1/4 Inch Shank with Double Ball Bearing

Matching Corner Round/Cove Router Bits

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mwigington

Discussion Starter · #3 · 11 d ago

Thank you, Oscar, that looks like the profile alright. It's not something I have seen at any of the box stores for sure.

ger21

· #4 · 11 d ago

While I agree that the profile of that bit is close, I can almost guarantee that that board was not made with a bit like that, and I would not recommend trying to cut it with a bit like that.
That router bit is designed to cut the edge of the board, and make two different profiles. To do what you want, you'd need to run the bit against the face, in a table with the board on edge.
But the real issue is the distance that cut is from the edge. I doubt the shank is anywhere close to being long enough to safely hold it in a collet and reach far enough up the board.
My guess is that board you have was made on a moulder, or even possibly by hand, with a moulding plane. You can't do it with a router in the normal (face down on a table) way. ANy bit that would cut the cove portion would also dig into the other convex profile.

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mwigington

Discussion Starter · #5 · 11 d ago

2

ger21 said:
While I agree that the profile of that bit is close, I can almost guarantee that that board was not made with a bit like that, and I would not recommend trying to cut it with a bit like that.
That router bit is designed to cut the edge of the board, and make two different profiles. To do what you want, you'd need to run the bit against the face, in a table with the board on edge.
But the real issue is the distance that cut is from the edge. I doubt the shank is anywhere close to being long enough to safely hold it in a collet and reach far enough up the board.
My guess is that board you have was made on a moulder, or even possibly by hand, with a moulding plane. You can't do it with a router in the normal (face down on a table) way. ANy bit that would cut the cove portion would also dig into the other convex profile.

It's a waterfall dresser from the 40's (is my guess.) Here is my solution, if you think that bit profile is close enough. The other end of the board is broken off. I cut out a piece of oak in the shape of the board profile I need. It's not as wide as the original piece due to the fact that I am going to glue it on the original piece as the replacement. It doesn't hold any weight and is a decorative piece. Do you think then that I could run it against the face? The groove would need to be cut right along the line of that white label.

Thank you for your help!

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Biagio

· #6 · 10 d ago

I agree with Ger - the bit profile is upside-down with respect to the workpiece, and the distance from the deepest part of the groove to the bottom edge of the workpiece exceeds safe shaft protrusion from the collet.
You could, however, make it in two parts: cut your replacement piece in two, along the deepest part of the desired groove (your “white label line”), machine each edge with the corresponding cove or round-over bits (cheapies will do), then glue them together again, before gluing the assembly to the original. As you said, carries no weight. And the glue line will be in the deepest part of the groove and probably invisible due to shadowing.
The round-over edge might need some sanding to match the original.
It would be safer to work with a longer length, and cut the correct length and curve after machining and glue-up. Keep your fingers well away from the router bit.

BTW, have you considered doing the thing by hand? Looks like about 6-8 “ of groove at the most.

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mwigington

Discussion Starter · #7 · 10 d ago

Biagio said:
I agree with Ger - the bit profile is upside-down with respect to the workpiece, and the distance from the deepest part of the groove to the bottom edge of the workpiece exceeds safe shaft protrusion from the collet.
You could, however, make it in two parts: cut your replacement piece in two, along the deepest part of the desired groove (your “white label line”), machine each edge with the corresponding cove or round-over bits (cheapies will do), then glue them together again, before gluing the assembly to the original. As you said, carries no weight. And the glue line will be in the deepest part of the groove and probably invisible due to shadowing.
The round-over edge might need some sanding to match the original.
It would be safer to work with a longer length, and cut the correct length and curve after machining and glue-up. Keep your fingers well away from the router bit.

BTW, have you considered doing the thing by hand? Looks like about 6-8 “ of groove at the most.

Thank you for your response, Biagio. Cutting in two is something I will definitely consider, depending on the answer to my next question.

I would love to do this piece by hand, however I have no idea how to make that cove, round-over cut by hand. Any advice will be appreciated. Thank you for keeping me safe!

Biagio

· #8 · 10 d ago

The round-over: rasp and sandpaper. The cove: remove some of the waste with a chisel or backsaw, then round rasp and sandpaper. Assuming a two-piece approach.

Could be done with one piece, but trickier. Cut down to the bottom of the groove with a backsaw, remove waste on the cove side with the same saw, cutting down to the bottom at an angle. You will not be able to use a round rasp, so approximate the cove with a fine chisel (or gouge, if you have one). More hand sanding required. After doing the cove, the round-over as above.

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mwigington

Discussion Starter · #9 · 10 d ago

Biagio said:
The round-over: rasp and sandpaper. The cove: remove some of the waste with a chisel or backsaw, then round rasp and sandpaper. Assuming a two-piece approach.

Could be done with one piece, but trickier. Cut down to the bottom of the groove with a backsaw, remove waste on the cove side with the same saw, cutting down to the bottom at an angle. You will not be able to use a round rasp, so approximate the cove with a fine chisel (or gouge, if you have one). More hand sanding required. After doing the cove, the round-over as above.

I will try to the two piece approach using the router first and if that doesn't work we'll go at it by hand. Thank you!

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Biagio

· #10 · 9 d ago

Please let us know how it works out, with photos.

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Alphonse53

· #11 · 8 d ago

As an afterthought, I'm assuming you have a setup shop of power tools. Personally, I had a bench grinder long before my first table saw that I used for sharpening my mower blades. A Stanley molding plane with a cutter sharpened to the profile you need might be the cheapest (and safest) route. Then all you would need is the basic bench.

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bob vaughan

· #12 · 8 d ago

Back in the day that was a pretty standard profile for shaper cutters and table saw moulding heads. Delta 35-100 and 09-100 for the little 1/2" shaft cutters.
Considering the date of manufacture, I'd guess that the part in question was machined with a shaper with a custom ground cove and bead profile cutter. The shown sample appears to be of the same diameter cove and bead. Most stock cutters are not the same cove and bead diameter.

From an old Delta catalog

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Rob Bragg

· #13 · 8 d ago

As mentioned above I would do it in two parts maybe using biscuits or dowels to put together. As a side note, I had a company make some molding cutter bits for me to do some special projects for a local door company needing trim that was no longer made. Cost was about $90 bucks though, not sure you would do that for a one time part.

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mwigington

Discussion Starter · #14 · 8 d ago

Alphonse53 said:
As an afterthought, I'm assuming you have a setup shop of power tools. Personally, I had a bench grinder long before my first table saw that I used for sharpening my mower blades. A Stanley molding plane with a cutter sharpened to the profile you need might be the cheapest (and safest) route. Then all you would need is the basic bench.

Sadly a bench grinder is something I don't have. Come payday I think I will remedy that! Good suggestion, thank you.

mwigington

Discussion Starter · #15 · 8 d ago

bob vaughan said:
Back in the day that was a pretty standard profile for shaper cutters and table saw moulding heads. Delta 35-100 and 09-100 for the little 1/2" shaft cutters.
Considering the date of manufacture, I'd guess that the part in question was machined with a shaper with a custom ground cove and bead profile cutter. The shown sample appears to be of the same diameter cove and bead. Most stock cutters are not the same cove and bead diameter.

View attachment 404838
From an old Delta catalog

Pardon my ignorance, so you are saying that the two piece approach mentioned would not work due to the fact that the diameter would be off?

Thank you!

mwigington

Discussion Starter · #16 · 8 d ago

Rob Bragg said:
As mentioned above I would do it in two parts maybe using biscuits or dowels to put together. As a side note, I had a company make some molding cutter bits for me to do some special projects for a local door company needing trim that was no longer made. Cost was about $90 bucks though, not sure you would do that for a one time part.

Our problem is that is a cost we would have to pass on to the customer. My other thought was to get a nice piece of oak, trace out that design on it, cut it out and just do a cove or V cut where that particular shape is and totally remake the footer. The piece would not be original then and while the original footer is broken it would still be mostly the original piece if I could repair it. I'm not sure it matters a whole lot, but I do like to keep the pieces as original as possible. As much as this is taking, I am considering just redoing it completely.

Thank you!

Biagio

· #17 · 7 d ago

Don’t overthink it. Go with the two-piece idea first. A bit of hand-sanding will break the crisp edges from the routing, and get you as close as damnit to the original, even if the router bit curves are not identical to the original.
It is only 6-8” from what I can tell, so not much sweat equity required. If you don’t like the outcome, your plan B is reasonable.

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mwigington

Discussion Starter · #18 · 3 d ago

4

Biagio said:
Don’t overthink it. Go with the two-piece idea first. A bit of hand-sanding will break the crisp edges from the routing, and get you as close as damnit to the original, even if the router bit curves are not identical to the original.
It is only 6-8” from what I can tell, so not much sweat equity required. If you don’t like the outcome, your plan B is reasonable.

I thought I had replied to this but alas. Thank you Biagio. I have made progress on it. I took your advice. After making a test piece out of pine, I showed it to my wife who said that was close enough for her so it works for me. We both worked for local governments so "it's close enough for government work" (ha!)

The two profiles side by side.

The glue up, I added a thin piece of oak on the back to give me a little more thickness. The original piece is a little thicker than the oak board I am using. I've planed/sanded it down to fit.

The roughed out final piece. I have glued up and it will need some additional shaping once the glue is cured.

I had to cut the original piece down to make a suitable joint edge. I am loath to cut original pieces but it was necessary. Once it is shaped, I'll post the final product.

Thanks to all for your advice and help!

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bob vaughan

· #19 · 23 h ago

Nicely done repair using the two piece solution.

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mwigington

Discussion Starter · #20 · 19 h ago

bob vaughan said:
Nicely done repair using the two piece solution.

Thank you!

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