:lol: Thanks Art. I only have a few years to go and I am buying tools like I will be hauling them with me to heaven!!!

 

While your sentiment is easy to agree with, it's easier said than done. I have a couple of points of disagreement, though.

Brand marketeers have been very successful in instilling the concept of "off-brand" as a bad thing but there are plenty of "on brand" products that stink. Some brand name products are clearly coasting or worse. I cite Delta as an example. Some have spotty products - Craftsman. On the other side, even Harbor Freight has some gems. You just have to find them.

Secondly, buying a product new means that you will take an immediate write down of about 50% if you sold right away. Maybe less but you surely won't get close to what you paid. Buy used if at all possible - when you sell it you get about what you paid for it. I have done this several times when I upgraded to a better product. Free tuition in the school of woodworking.

So, my advice is to read what people are saying about the tool in question. Not the brand. Use the brain you were given. Reviews are always a good starting point but forums like this are very helpful as well. Unlike the OP, I believe that most people will be honest if their tool stinks. If it does the job they intended it for, that's the important data point. Maybe there's a gray area where some bias optimistic. But when the positive comments outweigh the negative by a large margin, that sends a clear message. Bosch routers are a good example of that.

 

First off, if I were to pick on a company to avoid because they don't stand behind their products, it would be Delta. As much as I like my Delta lathe, I no longer recommend it to people because of the issues that company has had in recent years. I own several Grizzly machines. I can till you unequivocally Grizzly does stand behind their products, and this is based both on my own experience, by people I know. In fact I have heard more disaster stories out of other brands that are supposedly top notch than I do from Grizzly.

What I tell people who ask me for advice on finding tools, I tell them to do their homework. No one brand has all good machines, and no one brand has all bad machines.

Not everyone can afford filling their shop with Powermatic, it just isn't going to happen. A hobby woodworker can buy machines that will last decades and have machines from a variety of brands and manufacturers, including Grizzly.

 

I agree with most of what was said. One additional comment, after you do your research if you can't afford the best, get the best you can afford. There is no more frustrating thing for me than to struggle with a project, or damage it beyond repair, due to a poor quality tool. Been there, done that, won't do it again.

 

I like all the advice. I personally try to do all the research I can on the tool I am wanting. Then I like to get first hand advice. I always look for used but haven't really found anything I liked for the money so I end up buying new. My dilemma is and will always be; what I "need" vs what I "want"

 

Hmm. I can tell you what I paid for most every tool I own, even the Crafstman RAS I bought in 1976! Maybe another 20 years, I'll forget, may even forget I have them. But, that is a whole 'nuther issue... will have nothing to do with how much or how little I paid for them!!!

Art, your bias against Grizzly has been well documented, so I just say most of my Griz stuff is nearly 20 years old and works as well today as it did then. No regrets on any of it!

Won't talk about Craigs List. Well, yes I will... BUYER BEWARE. I see stuff that cost more than original retail, stuff the "owner"(at least possessor) has no idea what it is or does, and stuff that isn't worth taking home at any cost. Occasional bargains do exist, but...

One time use? HF maybe a good buy! Some of their stuff is quite ok. Seen a lot of junk form Dewalt also! Pays to know what you are looking at.

Experience comes from doing. We all makes mistakes, thing is to learn from them. Second go round, you will have a better idea what features/quality are important to you. Oh and I can't tell you what is important to you. and most folks don't listen any way! Been there done that and hesitate to give too much of such advise.

Still the issue of "craftsmanship". You know, being able to get the job done well with what you have. Too many people blame tools for lack of ability!

Enough rant.. Buy what you need/want. Don't sweat the detail too much. Expect you are going to be wrong once in a while, we all are.

Oh, and there rarely is any "best" anything for everyone!

 

Still the issue of "craftsmanship". You know, being able to get the job done well with what you have. Too many people blame tools for lack of ability!

Oh, and there rarely is any "best" anything for everyone!

Duane - you're right on the first point. However, referring to "what you have", there's that old saying, "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". The right tool for the job helps - then it's up to your ability, or lack thereof, to get the job done.

On your second point, you are absolutely right.

 

What tools to buy.

all of them....

 

...except the Chineesey ones...

 

Learned right off that good ain't cheap and cheap ain't good. And some brands are not trustworthy and a few others are. I go through reviews before buying and have always bought new because I don't know enough to buy used and refurbish. I'm definitely over the hill, but since I had the dough, I outfitted my shop as best I could and the results I produce improved enormously.

 

Personally I've never found "buy the best you can afford" to be very helpful advice. I could go out and buy Festool everything. I would certainly have an excellent set of tools. But would that be a sensible thing to do? No. Value for money is going to be a big part of any buyer's decisions, and rightly so. If a blue Bosch or Makita or DeWalt tool at half the price, or even a Black and Decker or green Bosch at a quarter of the price, will do the job well enough for your particular requirements, then why would you spend more money just to have "the best"?

I concur with the views that you have to consider the individual tool, and not buy solely on price or brand. Or indeed on country of origin, given that so much of everything, good and bad, is made in China these days. It's not the case that everything coming out of China is junk. They're capable of making things to whatever level of quality the western importers are prepared to pay for. I have a Quang Sheng #5 plane which is made to the old British Standard specifications - presumably at the behest of the UK importer - and much better finished than modern Stanley planes. It also costs more than a Stanley of course. Stanley could have their planes made in China to the same standards if they chose, but they've calculated there's more profit in cheap than in good.

 

Andy - I agree with much of what you said, especially about manufacturing to a standard. In my working career I always worked for companies that were manufactures. One clothing company I worked for manufactured high end women's outerwear, primarily dresses. Most of the garments were manufactured overseas. When a shipment came in we would take samples, the quantity tested was determined by a statistical algorithm, and inspect every aspect of the garment including measuring every seam for appearance, length and stitch count. If it didn't fall within our specifications the shipment was rejected. Bottom line is, if you're going to put your brand name on something, it's your choice by what standards the products are manufactured. If you choose to put your name on an inferior product then you've chosen those standards. By the way, the dress company did manufacture a less expensive line but still manufactured to a set of standards and every shipment was tested the same way.

Maybe, as you pointed out, a qualification to the statement "the best you can afford" would be helpful. How about "After you do your research for your current project and anticipated future projects, if you can't afford the best tool for the job, get the best you can afford." I don't believe that any one manufacturer makes the "best" tool in every category, so in your example, Festool might not always be the "best". Besides "best" is both objective and subjective and, as you pointed out, not always the right decision. For example, you can test a cutting edge objectively to determine the best but subjectively what do you need if for? A simple example might be if you need a bit to occasionally put an edge on some boxes made from pine the "best" bit objectively might be a Whiteside but, subjectively, you might be able to use an inexpensive bit maybe even one made of HSS. I guess what i'm saying is the "best" isn't automatically the most expensive one, or even the one rated "best" by the reviewers. "Best" is determined by your need. And, in the end, "need" has a subjective component and is determined by you.

 

Maybe I should clarify one point. When I buy a tool NEW I buy it with the idea that I will sell it. If I don't sell it then I have paid a lot for a tool that I really wanted. As an example sometime in the 80's I bought a Unisaw on sale I can't recall the exact price but let's say it was $1,200. I bought it as a replacement for a Craftsman which although a good cast iron saw it just didn't have enough hp and would bog down. I still have both saws but only use the Craftsman occasionally. The Unisaw on the other hand is my go to saw. Plenty of power, rugged and solid. If I were to sell that saw today I could get easily get half my investment back. If I sold the craftsman I would get maybe a quarter back. I could sell the Unisaw in a day but the Craftsman would take months if I sold it at all. So for about $20 dollars a year I've had the enjoyment of 30 some years of a fine tool. Over this period I have bought and sold several high end cabinet saws like Powermatic I have learned what sells fast and what doesn't sell and what you take a real beating on think Grizzly, Craftsman, Harbor Freight. Sure I could have kept the saws but I tie them into deals and trade for other things. Done properly you could get something like a Powermatic for the price of a small contractors saw. The same goes for band saws jointers routers etc. If you want something buy it. Don't you wish you had bought and held on to that 65 Corvette or GTO in 1975 when it cost $2000! I say treat yourself once in while and don't be the riches man in the cemetery

 

Perhaps it is the region of the country you are in, but my experience of buying and selling used tools isn't as bad as you have made it out. From my experience used power tools tend to sell well if priced around 50% of retail. This includes a Craftsman table saw I sold a couple years ago. I will give you that more premium brands such as Powermatic and Festool can sell closer to 75%-80% of retail , but those brands typically well exceed my budget.

For me tool buying is getting the best tool to meet my needs, within a reasonable budge. Reselling them later is not a factor in my decision, as I am not in the business of flipping tools. And it is not about being the richest man in the cemetery. I still have a family that needs a roof and food as well.