SawStop Contractor Saw Review - Page 7 - Router Forums
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post #61 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-27-2017, 04:52 PM
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Interesting thread. It is pretty easy to see that one company is trying to control the market and has no interest in how many fingers could be saved IF they kept the legal eagles out of the fray. If the SAFETY technology was open to the other manufacturers we would all be safer and the guy's with the superior product would rule the day. Sawstop's product seems well made and should be able to stand up in a competitive environment , so that makes it appear that the bottom line is their only interest. That doesn't give me a warm & fuzzy feeling when picking a company to give my money to. I'm sure that those who have the saw love it and feel safe using it (and I'm thrilled for them) but the legal roadblocks doesn't bode well for Sawstop's future when 2019 rolls around and all of the companies begin to incorporate a similar device. A patent to protect your product is understandable but not sharing safety technology via some sort of royalty arrangement instead of lawsuits that hampers the safety of the entire customer base is unconscionable. Makes me wonder how much safer our saws would be if all of the R & D folks would have had a green light to improve the product. JMHO..
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post #62 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-27-2017, 06:00 PM
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@Garyk

Steve Gass (Sawstop inventor) would claim he did try to share/license his safety technology, before becoming frustrated and deciding to build his own saw. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SawStop

I'm not saying I agree with SawStop over the history of this whole thing. I'm just saying there's two (or more) sides to the story.

I suspect part of the issue here is the U.S. litigation system as a whole. Adopting a safety feature in a new product can bring lawsuits that you're implying that your old products are unsafe. Disclaimer: IANAL, and I don't own a SawStop.
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post #63 of 70 (permalink) Old 11-28-2017, 01:34 PM
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Any tools with whirly parts, you have to be somewhat afraid of them. That is why when I make a saw sled, I put a bridge over the top of the saw blade, just high enough to allow whatever thickness of wood I am cutting to go thru easily. Usually that is 1/2" plywood, with the ocassonal piece of 3/4". This bride is wide enough I would have to lay my hand flat, and slide it under the bridge, to reach the blade. And that is not going to happen. I just have one extension cord I use for my power tools. So, when I finish with the saw for example, it is going to get unplugged. The worst injury I have ever sustained woodworking is when I stabbed my hand a little with a pocket knife. Fear of my router is why my masters are 1" thick, gives a lot of material to hold on to. Got no splitter, river, blade guard, on my saw, took all off when it was new. Oh yes, on my saw sleds, they have a hook on my end, so the saw blade will not get exposed after the cut, maybe a bit of overkill, but I go by the old saying, some is good, more is better, too much is just enough.
A sled that lets the bare blade come through the rear fence on the sled in inherently unsafe. I want a block of hardwood behind it to bury the blade in at the end of a cut. I think a lot of accidents occur when the workpiece suddenly slips forward and the user's hands follow so fast there's no time to get out of the way. Grrippers, push sticks and even simple 2x blocks help with a lot of that. I also suspect clothing, rings, bracelets, long sleeves are also involved with pulling the hand into the blade.

One of our members spoke of the Bosch, non destructive, fast blade drop that gives the protection without killing the blade. As I understand it, the lawsuit that stopped Bosch from licensing the device is over the flesh detection sensor. If SawStop's so interested in safety, why did they kill off Bosch in the USA? SawStop's equipment is very good, just way overpriced. I'd love to see the Bosch system available in most saws. I think SawStop's patents run out in a couple of years, after that, I bet Bosch will even the score by offering a very inexpensive license to include their non destructive technology in any brand that wants it. If they can do that for less that $300-$400 (retail), I think SawStop's day will be over...Save your fingers/wreck your blade and cartridge vs save your fingers, reset the blade...which is your preference?

Meanwhile, attention and a little pre planning and sleds and push blocks and sticks are the alternative. There may be two sides to every story, but once they hear the tale, most people then take one side or the other. Interesting how many have voted on this site.

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Last edited by DesertRatTom; 11-28-2017 at 01:37 PM.
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post #64 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-04-2017, 11:22 PM
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Wow! There aren't enough superlatives to describe my thoughts on this saw. It reminds me of driving a Ferrari...the attention to detail is incredible, and it shows in the build quality. I rarely ever write a review on anything but am so impressed by SawStop that I had to put this out there.

Right from the get-go, when opening the box(es), it's apparent that SawStop cares about both ease of use as well as safety. The directions were, by far, the best directions ever written to assemble anything, ever. I'm not kidding, SawStop must either care greatly about their customers or think we are all morons, because even a moron could follow the directions and assemble the saw accurately.

I received the saw about a week ago, took two days (about two hours a day) to put it together because I was waiting on a friend to help lift the saw onto the stand, but could have easily assembled and had it up and running in 3-4 hours with 2 people. Packaging was immaculate and intelligently designed. No damage/dings to any of the items whatsoever.

I moved up to this saw from a Dewalt 745 portable job site saw, so was expecting (and indeed was the reason I bought) more table surface room, but wow! With the cast iron wings and the 36" extension, there's more than enough room for doing sheets of plywood, and the saw is rock-steady when moving heavy board sections across it.
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post #65 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-05-2017, 05:52 PM
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Wow! There aren't enough superlatives to describe my thoughts on this saw. It reminds me of driving a Ferrari...the attention to detail is incredible, and it shows in the build quality. I rarely ever write a review on anything but am so impressed by SawStop that I had to put this out there.

Right from the get-go, when opening the box(es), it's apparent that SawStop cares about both ease of use as well as safety. The directions were, by far, the best directions ever written to assemble anything, ever. I'm not kidding, SawStop must either care greatly about their customers or think we are all morons, because even a moron could follow the directions and assemble the saw accurately.

I received the saw about a week ago, took two days (about two hours a day) to put it together because I was waiting on a friend to help lift the saw onto the stand, but could have easily assembled and had it up and running in 3-4 hours with 2 people. Packaging was immaculate and intelligently designed. No damage/dings to any of the items whatsoever.

I moved up to this saw from a Dewalt 745 portable job site saw, so was expecting (and indeed was the reason I bought) more table surface room, but wow! With the cast iron wings and the 36" extension, there's more than enough room for doing sheets of plywood, and the saw is rock-steady when moving heavy board sections across it.
I knew I should have bought a Saw Stop . I went with General instead , but I’m liking SawStops dust extraction setup over there blade. I bought the overhead section hoping to modify it to fit mine , but wish now that I had just bought there Cabinet saw to begin with .
A 36” fence would be perfect to me , as I bought a 50” ,and it’s taking up a lot of real estate .
I never manage to get sheet goods cut very accurately by myself anyways , so I use my track saw instead, which makes having a 50”fence redundant imo

I don't know anything about CNC router tables , but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night
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post #66 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-11-2017, 06:17 AM
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I recently sold my Saw Stop and the guy who bought it was as happy to get it as I was happy to get
rid of it. I am now using my Craftsman 12" saw that I bought in the late 70's.
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post #67 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-11-2017, 02:26 PM
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@Garyk

Steve Gass (Sawstop inventor) would claim he did try to share/license his safety technology, before becoming frustrated and deciding to build his own saw. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SawStop

I'm not saying I agree with SawStop over the history of this whole thing. I'm just saying there's two (or more) sides to the story.

I suspect part of the issue here is the U.S. litigation system as a whole. Adopting a safety feature in a new product can bring lawsuits that you're implying that your old products are unsafe. Disclaimer: IANAL, and I don't own a SawStop.
Rob: I am aware of his attempt to "share" his technology BUT he wanted a premium price from the other manufacturers and there were other conditions he attached that soured the deal. That jump from 3% (reasonable) to 8% (questionable) on a $3000 cabinet saw that is $240 per saw. I remember reading about his negotiating with the other manufacturers at the time and although I don't remember the deal he offered I do remember he wanted some operational control over their product without incurring any liability. It was typical lawyer-ease language and the various company "attorneys" wouldn't go along with it. Wikipedia's accounts are supplied mostly by persons having an vested interest in the posted information and don't always give you 100% of the story. I think the Saw Stop is a great idea but when the person holding the patent wants to control a company from the "outside" that is a bit much.
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post #68 of 70 (permalink) Old 02-19-2018, 09:27 AM
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I would still buy another Unisaw or maybe a Powermatic 66. I don't deny that the Sawstop might be the right piece of equipment for many applications but I alone use my Uni and I know better than to stick my fingers into the blade. It was a really good review Nick and I'm glad to hear that the experience was pleasureable.
My only negative with the 66 is I wish it could be retrofitted with a riving knife, but no one has come up with a way to do it.

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post #69 of 70 (permalink) Old 02-19-2018, 09:53 AM
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My only negative with the 66 is I wish it could be retrofitted with a riving knife, but no one has come up with a way to do it.

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post #70 of 70 (permalink) Old 02-19-2018, 09:59 AM
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I don't disagree with that Rob. I spent 25 years falling trees in the forests of British Columbia. The same exact statistics applied to fallers. The most accident prone were fallers with less than 5 years experience and more than 20. I have a few aches and pains as a result of a few bad choices. The part that irritates me is that the owner/ inventor is trying to ram Sawstop down our throats through legislation changes. That is something I have a big problem with. If I were a contractor I would probably put a Sawstop on the job as a butt covering exercise. As a hobbyist who knows how to prevent injury I resent the kind of control the Sawstop inventor is trying to exert. Maybe some of it is genuine concern but I suspect it is mostly greed. I am a much more strongly believer in proper education to avoid the problem. From my experience, and I have quite a bit, when you try to convince someone that all the danger has been eliminated you are truly in danger. The idea that something can be made idiot proof is a myth. My response to people who believe that is that you simply have not met every idiot yet.

One of the issues with this piece of equipment is that it gives a sense of security that may lead to procedural failures with other types of machines that don't have similar technology like drill presses, band saws, routers, jointers, and lathes.The right safety attitude will protect you in the use of all machines and the idea that no matter what stupid thing you do with this machine might possibly bleed over (not exactly intending a pun there) into the use of other machines is of deep concern to me.

Someone posted here about two years ago that he was having a problem that a table saw would have solved easily. Then he admitted that he had had a table saw but got rid of it. When Iasked why he said it was because he had lost parts of finges on it. When he gave the details he had been using a GRRRipper to rip a board with when something went wrong and it flipped over and his fingers went into the saw. Yet everyone else who has used the GRRipper has said that it is the absolute safest way to move material past a saw blade. Obviously not infallible according to that member. The way to improve your odds of not having accidents is to analyze your work methods for procedural flaws, eliminate any you percieve, and then to focus on what is happening in front of you. And when I say focus I'm talking about the kind of focus your cat has when it sees a bird in the tree just outside your window.

I'm not totally convinced yet that ramming a hot dog into a saw blade is the same as sticking your finger into one so for the meantime I would prefer to implement the time tested work safe procedures that I've been taught. As I said earlier, my rant is no slight on the review being given in this thread, but it still pays to work safe instead of putting all your faith into safety technology instead.
If you have followed the Sawstop vs Bosch case, it is clear that Gass was more interested in protecting his patents than people's fingers. The Reaxxx jobsite saw was forced off the US market for patent infringement. The Bosch saw uses an airbag style explosive charge to pull the blade below the table. It does not damage the blade. The Sawstop uses a fusable link that is melted with high current and releases a spring and a block of aluminum to lower and stop the blade. Gass' patents were so well written that virtually any competing design will be stopped. Gass has exactly one licensee, in Italy. The sensing circuit in both is similar to a touch operated table lamp; nothing unique.
The court ruled for Gass. So much for a free market in such a critical area. This was just about job site saws. I doubt anybody will try it again. In a lot of ways the Bosch was a better design. It does not destroy the blade, does not to be readjusted if the blade is not exactly 10", does not need a special cartridge for dado blades, and the cartridge has 2 shots in it. As much as I like the Sawstop, I really loath Gass. Sawstop was bought by Festool, maybe things will change.

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