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post #21 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-20-2019, 10:35 PM
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I'm thinking gearbox oil, like in a differential or a gear drive Roto-tiller. Low speeds need a heavy, thick oil - it flows, unlike grease which clings.
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post #22 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-21-2019, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by sgcz75b View Post
https://www.bellperformance.com/blog...n-classic-cars

Notice that not only classic cars are talked about but also cars pre-1990. Older mechanics who actually worked on old cars will tell you the same. There's no reason to change as the negatives outweigh any possible positives. I'm still waiting to hear the positives. That stuff about longer periods between oil changes with synthetics may have validity until you realize that regular oil changes are the single most important maintenance you can do on a car regardless of what manufacturers' claim.

I can state that changing regular oils every 3-6000 miles is far more beneficial than changing synthethic oils every 10-15000 miles, and with the price difference of the oils just as cost effective.

Of course, the synthetic oil manufacturers and dealers want people to pay those higher prices as there's money to be made in selling you what you don't need and may harm your car.

That's the reason I posted what I did.
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I have to disagree Steve. I've been an avid user of Amsoil synthetics for years now and there is no better oil in my opinion. Al Amatuzio, the founder of Amsoil, was a jet pilot in the US AF and he noticed that the oil used in them was strictly synthetic because synthetics would operate at both lower and higher temperature ranges than regular base stocks and give better protection even in the mid ranges. Amsoil recommends in normally aspirated engines a 25,000 mile change interval. I don't know what the price is in the US but about $14 per US quart here. Even if you do the oil change yourself that's 1 oil change in Amsoil Signature Series instead of 5 changes in regular oil. There is no way that regular oil is cheap enough to equal that. If you are having your oil changed then the economics change drastically in favor of Amsoil.

Amsoil has the longest change inerval I know of at 5 times. Mobil, which I used to sell for Esso , was only 2 times but also a little cheaper than Amsoil at about $9-10 here per liter (slightly larger than the US quart). If you use a lighter weight oil than a 10W then it has to have some synthetic in it. Regular oil can't go lower than 10. Any oil that is 0W is purely synthetic. If you live where it can get really cold in the winter that lighter oil can make the difference between starting an engine and not getting it started. Plus the synthetic oil is much kinder to the engine during startups because it clings to the parts better than regular oil so it provides more lubrication during those few seconds it takes to get the oil pressure up.

Someone I consider a master woodworker once told me that a master woodworker is not someone who never makes mistakes. He is someone who is able to cover them up so that no one can tell.
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post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-21-2019, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Nickp View Post
The advantages of synthetic grease are really at the lower and upper extremes of load and temperature.

Regular ole grease needs some temperature to allow it to release the lubricating agent so it can get into the nooks and crannies. When regular grease gets cold it hardens and takes a bit to release the lubricating agent. Synthetic grease stays soft and will allow that release at much lower temperatures. It might make a difference in hand tools if you started working with a cold tool in very cold temperatures.

At the upper end, regular grease will break down at around 285deg...this is of no concern in a hand tool. Synthetic grease keeps right on going.

Short story...it probably doesn't make a difference in our applications...but I happen to like synthetic lubricants.
lithium grease dries out after a few years. for some things I use marine grease, because it don't dry out, and is very water resistant, however, it's too thick for high speed, I tried that on my friends front wheel bearings, they were cleaned out good with kerosene, dried, and marine grease was put in, a couple of trips around the block, and the hubs got red!.. maybe they make a thinner marine grease for axles?. what I used was from a grease gun..
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post #24 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-21-2019, 01:05 PM
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My point is that I will use what the manufacturer recommends or used at the time of production. It was their design after all.

My 2002 Honda Civic - synthetic oil

1990 Honda Accord EX -conventional oil

1986 Honda Accord LX -conventional oil

All these are following the OEM guidelines. No reason to change. Between the 1990 and 1986 Hondas there's 420,000 miles with no engine problems.

I always use OEM parts - never aftermarket parts. I avoid all dealerships as scoundrels after the warranty is over and use a top independent mechanic and I supply the OEM parts. I only use premium oil filters bought on Amazon. The best brake pads, powerful batteries, and excellent tires. Maintenance is far cheaper than repairs.

As I said earlier, probably where synthetic grease or Lucas conventional grease is used in a sixty-year-old toy is not critical. But I'll stick with convention oils where it was originally used and recommended by the designers. They know more about the requirements for their tools, engines, and machines than I.

Anecdotes are not evidence. They are stories.

I can be and have been wrong about many things in my life. Maybe I am here as well. But without good scientific evidence, I'll continue that process which has worked for me.

Great discussion.

Steve

"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." Christopher Hitchens

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post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-21-2019, 02:57 PM
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There were only a few synthetics back in 1990. The major oil companies weren't producing them back then with the exception of possibly Mobil. Since then most or all of them are because synthetics have proven to be superior in every way to conventional oil. The only two of them that I know for sure that advertise extended oil change intervals is Amsoil and Mobil. There are two types of synthetics, molecules that are totally man made like Amsoil's and then ones that are specific molecules deeply refined and separated from conventional base stocks (like Mobil's I think but I think their oil rep also told me they mix in the man made stuff too, explaining why the different prices and change intervals). At the time that you mention many dealers carried their own brand oils which is what they tried to coerce you into using by claiming that warranties would be void without it. That didn't work for very long and resulted in the law discussed in this article from Amsoil who successfully sued on behalf of their clients who had engine failures and were denied warranty: http://superoilcentral.com/amsoil-warranty/ Those companies like GM, Dodge, and Ford who sold oil branded with their names bought them from major oil companies who supplied the base stocks and blended the additives that go in according to the auto manufacturer's wishes. Additives such as viscosity improvers (that makes the oil thicker when hot instead of thinner and the most expensive of all the additives), anti foaming agents, and tackifiers that make oil stick to the parts without running off. Esso bottled a lot of oil for other people I know.

So the real answer to your statement is that car makers were never doing what was best for you, they were doing what was best for them in recommending you use their oils. You need not worry about switching over from regular to synthetic except possibly if the engine is nearly at life's end. I wouldn't bother if that's the case, there would be nothing much to be gained and at that point it might not be that good for it. But I do recommend switching a new vehicle over to synthetic if it's fairly new. I did with a Jeep Cherokee and we got rid of it at 450,000 km and the engine was still running fine but the tranny was starting to show early signs of failure.

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post #26 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-21-2019, 06:18 PM
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I was referring not to a particular branded oil, rather to the oil weights and types that the manufacturer recommended. In my 1949 Chevy pickup I never used high detergent oil. Those old cars weren't meant to use it.

In my 1962 Buick LaSabra, I used HD oils, per Buick's instructions.

In my 1986 and 1990 Hondas, those cars were meant to use conventional oils, not synthetics.

My 2002 Honda has used synthetics since it was manufactured per Honda's directive.

Most oils are made and blended by very few corporations. The brands are merely selling gimmicks.

I was referring to car dealers as lying and deceiving scoundrels because that's what they are; not because they sell branded oil. I'd as soon trust Jeffrey Dahmer babysitting as a car dealer.

Put synthetic oil in an original 1955 Chevy V-8 engine and drive it a few thousand miles. You'll regret it, but your car mechanic will love it.

But I do buy OEM parts regardless of whether they were made in Japan, China, Germany, but I won't buy a big three American made car, (GM, Chrysler, or Ford unless it's an F150) or any import car made from parts manufactured in Mexico or any Audi, Volvos or Korean made cars.

What oil to use in those vehicles is the least of your worries.



Steve

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Last edited by sgcz75b; 02-21-2019 at 06:36 PM.
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post #27 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-21-2019, 06:29 PM
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unreal...
from a jigsaw to trucks to make a non relative point...
WTB dry lubes are out too w/ some...
there are times that improvement or better is a good thing...

This would have been the week that I'd have finished chewing thru the restraints...
If only new layers hadn't been added....

Stick....
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"SNORK Mountain Congressional Library and Taxidermy”
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post #28 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-21-2019, 07:17 PM
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time to come up to speed...

.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 7208e.pdf (200.5 KB, 5 views)
File Type: pdf lubrication_guide.pdf (333.2 KB, 4 views)
File Type: pdf MOTOR BEARING LUBE GUIDE.pdf (936.9 KB, 7 views)
File Type: pdf REDUCING BEARING FAILURES.pdf (154.7 KB, 5 views)
File Type: pdf Lubricants for Gear Motors, Gear Boxes & Power Tool Gearing.pdf (850.8 KB, 12 views)
File Type: pdf Synthetic Lubricants.pdf (262.8 KB, 6 views)
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This would have been the week that I'd have finished chewing thru the restraints...
If only new layers hadn't been added....

Stick....
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"SNORK Mountain Congressional Library and Taxidermy”
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post #29 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-21-2019, 09:49 PM
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Let's keep it civil gentlemen. Steve it isn't necessarily a case of them not being designed to use synthetic oil. It may just have been that they didn't expect anyone to use synthetic oil in them. If a synthetic has the SAE rating that the manufacturer calls for in the lubrication requirements then it should be substitutable for regular oils. I started driving and working as a mechanic in the mid 60s when multi viscosity oil started coming out and at about the same time detergent started getting added to combat carbon deposits and varnish buildup. I recall old timers coming into the station I worked at and insisting on us changing their oil with single viscosity mineral oil even though the newer oil of the time was better. As I said before, the big concern was with high mileage engines that hadn't been using detergent oil. There were rumors that the detergent could break too much sludge up and plug oil ports.

I personally can't see an issue with putting synthetic in an old engine, especially if I had rebuilt it recently. Anyone concerned could call Esso's help line or ask Amsoil's help line. Those would be definitive sources.
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Someone I consider a master woodworker once told me that a master woodworker is not someone who never makes mistakes. He is someone who is able to cover them up so that no one can tell.
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post #30 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-21-2019, 10:08 PM
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I found this article about using new oils in old engines and the writer says that he consulted experts in writing it so it should be accurate. What About New Oil in Old Cars

As far as getting diverted from old jigsaw gearboxes to old cars I don't see an issue. The discussion included a comment about whether an old gearbox would perform with a newer style lubricant so part of the discussion is old vs newer lubes which applies to motors or gearboxes. I think the issue is less critical with gearboxes as gears are still gears and if anything, newer lubes would be as kind or kinder to seals and bearings than older oils. Newer oils and lubes are less prone to degradation from both heat and oxydation than older oils and greases are because of better quality additives being available now. Plus additives that help the lubricant cling to the parts are better as well. I've worked in the lube industry and I'm not aware of the concerns that Steve brings up but if anyone is concerned then all they need to do is consult the manufacturer of a product prior to using it. In the long run this I said and you said exchange won't solve anything.
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