Green Roof planter boxes, feedback requested - Page 2 - Router Forums
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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-04-2020, 04:42 PM
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Never, ever use copper fasteners with Cedar! The aciidic nature of Cedar will eat copper for breakfast!
I remember years ago, an Architect up here specified copper nails for a Cedar shake roof; long story short, the whole roof had to be redone after a couple of years.
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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-04-2020, 04:54 PM
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Phil; carry the boxes up completely empty. bring the soil up separately, and start your plants in nursery pots. Anything up to but not over 1 gal. I do this every year, twice a year actually; Spring and Fall.
I've already either over Wintered some plants in 1 gal. pots, and/or bought bedding plants in 2 1/2" pots...growing them on for planting into large planters once the danger of night frosts is past.
Trying to carry those fully loaded boxes is a recipe for disaster. Just do your final setting out of plants in place.
At the risk of sounding like a **** don't try moving those boxes loaded up!
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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-04-2020, 05:00 PM
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Further to that Copper and cedar thing, remember those Revere Copper adverts for Copper gutters, back in the 50's and early 60's? Same thing happened; folks with too much money tried Copper gutters with Cedar roofs....real bad idea.
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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-04-2020, 07:05 PM
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I was going to suggest something other than staples, only because my experience with stapled wood "joints" has been that they're rather temporary for anything outside.
But perhaps with a decent glue (or maybe without glue at all) and a good joint as previously suggested you've got a better chance of having a longer-life product. Glad to her they won't be sitting in water as such.
I guess from what I've read the plan is to be as cost-conscious as possible as well as managing the skills of those involved assisting?

How hard a wood is the cedar? I don't have any experience with it, so just thinking about the ability to fire the staples home, and this may dictate the stapler needed.
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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-04-2020, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1fizgig View Post

How hard a wood is the cedar? I don't have any experience with it, so just thinking about the ability to fire the staples home, and this may dictate the stapler needed.
hard doesn't enter into the equation, it just isn't...
it is the softest or just about of the pines... (Janka 350)...
install staples 90° to each other and they won't so easily pull...

screws, as in deck, w/ a few MC changes/cycles and the screws will split the wood...
a truss headed screw will treat the wood better and be less likely to split it...
hold the best of all the fastening options...
the top board will need a clearance hole and the bottom board needs a pilot hole...
dip the screws in glue to strengthen the wood fibers..
a tapered point drill bit works best for the clearance/pilot hole...

Common Name(s): Western Redcedar, Western Red Cedar
Scientific Name: Thuja plicata
Distribution: Pacific Northwest United States/Canada
Tree Size: 165-200 ft (50-60 m) tall, 7-13 ft (2-4 m) trunk diameter
Average Dried Weight: 23 lbs/ft3 (370 kg/m3)
Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .31, .37
Janka Hardness: 350 lbf (1,560 N)
Modulus of Rupture: 7,500 lbf/in2 (51.7 MPa)
Elastic Modulus: 1,110,000 lbf/in2 (7.66 GPa)
Crushing Strength: 4,560 lbf/in2 (31.4 MPa)
Shrinkage: Radial: 2.4%, Tangential: 5.0%, Volumetric: 6.8%, T/R Ratio: 2.1

Here's a comparison to give you some idea....

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This would have been the week that I'd have finished chewing thru the restraints...
If only new layers hadn't been added....

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Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
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Last edited by Stick486; 05-04-2020 at 08:38 PM.
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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-04-2020, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Cherryville Chuck View Post

Some of the stainless fasteners I've used were very slick and pulled apart easily.
Galvanized tends to grip better and will probably last about as long as the boxes will.

The strongest corners using just small air driven fasteners would be cross nailed miters.
size the end grain 1st...
WRC needs to treated as an oily tropical wood...
the rebated rabbet would relieve the stress on the staple...
I drawers routinely w/ rebates, Weldbond and a 23GA pinner...
they don't split nor come apart...

get the SS staples w/ serrations and hot glue on them

https://www.fastenerusa.com/staples/...rown-l-series/

exactly on thee cross nailed corners...

This would have been the week that I'd have finished chewing thru the restraints...
If only new layers hadn't been added....

Stick....
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"SNORK Mountain Congressional Library and Taxidermy”
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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-04-2020, 08:14 PM
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Re your drawing, Phil; I like that you've got the bottom boards literally on the bottom, but I'd build it so that all four side bottoms are in full contact with the bottom edges of the side boards. Nailing/screwing up into them all the way around will add tremendous strength where it needs it most. It'll prevent the sides and ends from blowing out; most of the force is at the bottom~sides.
Hopefully that made sense...
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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-05-2020, 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stick486 View Post
size the end grain 1st...
WRC needs to treated as an oily tropical wood...
the rebated rabbet would relieve the stress on the staple...
I drawers routinely w/ rebates, Weldbond and a 23GA pinner...
they don't split nor come apart...

get the SS staples w/ serrations and hot glue on them

https://www.fastenerusa.com/staples/...rown-l-series/

exactly on thee cross nailed corners...
I've had no problem with glued edges or joints inside, it's outside that's that has been the problem. The wood is oily but it is also porous. Water gets in beside the joints and the wood next to the glue line fails. I topped the uprights on a couple of cedar benches I made and I blind doweled them so that the holes didn't go right through to the top of the boards and they even let go.

Cedar is really common here and I have a few growing on the property so I've used quite a bit over the years. Mechanical fasteners work the best. I made dozens of squares of cedar roof shakes when I was young and installed a few of them. Phosphorus coated box nails worked well putting those on and last just about forever, even the ones on the ridge caps where they are exposed to the weather. There were some old shake roofs around when I first moved here that were getting close to 100 years old and were still shedding rain. They were getting so thin you could see light through them. Some of the fence posts and rail fences are around 50 years old but those had to come from fire killed trees to last that long.

As soft as cedar is the knots are notoriously hard and chip grade 4 carbide bits easily. You are better off to use a bit with grade 3 carbide when routing cedar.
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Someone I consider a master woodworker once told me that a master woodworker is not someone who never makes mistakes. He is someone who is able to cover them up so that no one can tell.
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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-05-2020, 01:38 AM
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For all its faults I love working with WR Cedar.
Carrying a few wet WR Cedar boards home from the mill leaves my van scented with that that rich pungent perfume for several days.

Last edited by DaninVan; 05-05-2020 at 01:38 AM. Reason: typo
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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-05-2020, 08:04 AM
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Well my thought earlier in the spring for building some plant stands for the deck has been reinvigorated and answers to questions I didn't even know I had have already been answered. No flat roof here but if I did I would have done just this some tears ago after our first trip to Alaska (we embarked at Vancouver). I saw many flat roof buildings in Vancouver that had planted roofs including trees and really liked the look and idea. Seemed like a very progressive area. For my roof I will likely have solar panels before long. Thanks for starting this thread Phil and thanks to rest of you for the education on cedar and its outdoor use methods. Seriously good thread.
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