Question: Biscuites vs. Doweles, Asking Harry's Opinion As Well As Others - Page 2 - Router Forums
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post #11 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-25-2014, 07:50 PM
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If the joints appearance didn't matter or was hidden I'd use pocket screws.

If you want to stay conventional, that old time skill of carpentry (which I would love to acheive) I'd use mortise and tenon.

As a halfway approach loose tenon would be in the mix.

I'm not sure I'd ever use dowels again as I've not had a lot of success in alignment.

This really is a case of list all possible methods of joining the stock, then write a list of what you want as the outcome, hidden or visible, strength to acheive etc.
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post #12 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-25-2014, 08:09 PM
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Much against my better judgement and because my name was mentioned I'll give my answer Jerry. The main reason that I suggested biscuits is that you have very poor vision and cutting the slots requires no measuring, just freehand pencil lines and when the jointer is plunged it's moved from side to side so that in glue-up the joints can be slid into perfect alignment. All other methods mentioned are just fine for those fortunate enough to have good vision.
In summary, Jerry, you have very little woodworking experience and very poor vision so it seems sensible to me to suggest the simplest method that has guaranteed results rather than one of the several other methods that are more difficult and could easily lead to disaster.

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post #13 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-25-2014, 09:15 PM
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Without regard to personality issues or conflicts--in my opinion Harry's answer was a good lesson to me. When i read through the question originally--i went through MY decision matrix for MY solution. Harry's reasoning takes into account the needs of the user and the user's tools. I hope i learn to react to questions on all topics in that manner. Thanks Harry.

(i shan't answer how i would do it, but it would likely involve a Kreg product if i'm covering the inside of the chest!!)

earl
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post #14 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-25-2014, 11:21 PM
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Jerry, now that a few of us have made suggestions, I think you should go with what you feel comfortable with.

Regardless of your choice, practice on some scrap.

I have used pocket screws enough to be comfortable with them. My assembly table has the tracks for clamps to hold the pieces securely. And, in the case of the frames I showed earlier, I make spacers so everything will be lined up. Since I am building cabinets with overlay doors and drawer fronts, it is easy for me to make minor adjustments during assembly...and no one will ever know. :-)

Good luck. I have no doubt your project is going to look nice.
Mike
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post #15 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-25-2014, 11:49 PM
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Biscuits are fairly strong and not just for alignment. Dowels should be a little stronger but you need to be very accurate drilling the holes or you will have mating problems. Mortice and tenon is stronger yet. Old doors and windows used saddle joints, an open ended mortice and tenon, because it was the strongest joint that could be made quickly.

Someone I consider a master woodworker once told me that a master woodworker is not someone who never makes mistakes. He is someone who is able to cover them up so that no one can tell.
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post #16 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-26-2014, 12:09 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by harrysin View Post
Much against my better judgement and because my name was mentioned I'll give my answer Jerry. The main reason that I suggested biscuits is that you have very poor vision and cutting the slots requires no measuring, just freehand pencil lines and when the jointer is plunged it's moved from side to side so that in glue-up the joints can be slid into perfect alignment. All other methods mentioned are just fine for those fortunate enough to have good vision.
In summary, Jerry, you have very little woodworking experience and very poor vision so it seems sensible to me to suggest the simplest method that has guaranteed results rather than one of the several other methods that are more difficult and could easily lead to disaster.
Harry,
That's what I was fishing for, not only your suggestion , but your reasoning too. I do appreciate the suggestions other than biscuits and dowels, but the question to the forum was not for other suggestion but which would be better choice between the two options given in the question. Harry answered in the manner I thought that hw would.

I have been or should say, I am, so impressed with the JessEm doweling jig that I had until now really wanted to use dowels and use the new jig, but Harry's reasoning does make sense.

The order that the parts are put together in is very important, if not put together in the proper order one could get trapped when using either one of the two options.

One other point that I have wondered about has to do with the strength of the miter lock joints at the corners. The installation of the floor will help to some degree in holding the four wall together, but the corners seems to me to be very important, but I am going to go ahead and use the miter lock joints, they are already cut and they look very good.

Jerry
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post #17 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-26-2014, 02:59 AM
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Hmmm...

Good reasoning Harry. Along with others- what you are most comfortable with. Each one woiuld hold in your case. A good glue-up goes a long way.

Seems your next question is on the joining of the corners. From s structural point of perspective... You drew out the ends as a frame and panels... You didn't post a scetch on the front/back/bottom. So from a guestamation of what that might be... I'm assuming that the grain of the sides and bottom is going horizontally, with the ends meeting the sides(?) Are the ends inside of that frame on the ends or are there panels inside the frame as the sides? Wondering if you thought you would miter lock those frames to the front or to side panels that are inside of those side frames?

If was looking at your sketches and pondering. A miter-lock might not what I would use on those corners into an end frame. It would detract from the design. I would think a spline joint (either with your table saw or a router.) The grooves would be in the ends, with the splines in the ends of the front, back and bottom. The bottom in chests like that are usually fitted into grooves between the front and back. On adding more to that kind of joining, if I want more than just glue, then I'll shoot some 16 gauge finish nails in. If I think I need more... then I'll use trim screws and sink them below the surface, where I can either fill over them... or put small wooden plugs over them (about 1/8" holes with trim head screws).

Maybe I sometime take some of those things for granted, because I've been doing it a while. I know that may sound like a 3-D puzzle. But plan them out and they just snap together quickly. Joining in that manner, each joint works together to hold the whole together. Being off a little when you set up your tooling and it is a little forgiving and doesn't detract from the finished product.

Being off a minute amount on one end of one side of four locking miter joints... and you have more work ahead to cover that up from showing.

But when it comes down to it-- I guess all of that really depends on "your design"" and/or what you want to practice on. I know whatever path you take, you have a tendency to do a good job at it. You want to do a good job. You take pride in what you do, but sometimes have to remember that it just needs to meet your standards and sometimes your own standards are pretty high up there. Don't take it too seriously or critical. Remember to have fun.

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post #18 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-26-2014, 08:27 AM
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I agree with Doug's reply. Personally I use biscuit joinery in almost all of my non -corner joints because they are fast, easy and never have any alignment problems.I probably tried dowels too early in my woodworking and never really got over some of the traumatic experiences when thos suckers don't line up!! Which ever way you decide to go good luck.


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post #19 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-26-2014, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bowen View Post

One other point that I have wondered about has to do with the strength of the miter lock joints at the corners. The installation of the floor will help to some degree in holding the four wall together, but the corners seems to me to be very important, but I am going to go ahead and use the miter lock joints, they are already cut and they look very good.

Jerry
Jerry,

The corners are going to be long grain to long grain, and the glue will be plenty. You might simply want to use a rabbet-Dado joint to join the corner. Easy to make, lots of glue surface, more tolerant of a little misalignment than a lock miter. Just remember that piece y will be shorter than x so it looks even when assembled

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post #20 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-26-2014, 09:22 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MAFoElffen View Post
Hmmm...

Good reasoning Harry. Along with others- what you are most comfortable with. Each one woiuld hold in your case. A good glue-up goes a long way.

Seems your next question is on the joining of the corners. From s structural point of perspective... You drew out the ends as a frame and panels... You didn't post a scetch on the front/back/bottom. So from a guestamation of what that might be... I'm assuming that the grain of the sides and bottom is going horizontally, with the ends meeting the sides(?) Are the ends inside of that frame on the ends or are there panels inside the frame as the sides? Wondering if you thought you would miter lock those frames to the front or to side panels that are inside of those side frames?

If was looking at your sketches and pondering. A miter-lock might not what I would use on those corners into an end frame. It would detract from the design. I would think a spline joint (either with your table saw or a router.) The grooves would be in the ends, with the splines in the ends of the front, back and bottom. The bottom in chests like that are usually fitted into grooves between the front and back. On adding more to that kind of joining, if I want more than just glue, then I'll shoot some 16 gauge finish nails in. If I think I need more... then I'll use trim screws and sink them below the surface, where I can either fill over them... or put small wooden plugs over them (about 1/8" holes with trim head screws).

Maybe I sometime take some of those things for granted, because I've been doing it a while. I know that may sound like a 3-D puzzle. But plan them out and they just snap together quickly. Joining in that manner, each joint works together to hold the whole together. Being off a little when you set up your tooling and it is a little forgiving and doesn't detract from the finished product.

Being off a minute amount on one end of one side of four locking miter joints... and you have more work ahead to cover that up from showing.

But when it comes down to it-- I guess all of that really depends on "your design"" and/or what you want to practice on. I know whatever path you take, you have a tendency to do a good job at it. You want to do a good job. You take pride in what you do, but sometimes have to remember that it just needs to meet your standards and sometimes your own standards are pretty high up there. Don't take it too seriously or critical. Remember to have fun.


Mike,
I'll try again, I wrote a rather long lengthy reply to your post and when I clicked on "submit reply" I got the message, "this message cannot be displayed" so I will try again. I don't know if the problem is with my computer or the web site.

I'll try to condense the reply this time. I found your post to be a bit confusing to me, I am pretty sure that the confusion is my fault. Let me try to simplify things so that you can better answer my question. In the sketches, parts marked A and B have miter lock joints cut into them on the outside edges, you can't tell that from the sketches. The side walls of the chest are of the same construction design as the front and back of the chest.

The matching end styles on the side panels have the matching miter lock joints cut in them and thus form the corner of the chest when locked together..

My question is whether or not the miter lock joint is strong enough or not for this application. I became intrigued with the concept of the miter lock joint recently and purchased the bits from Infinity along with their set up jigs and wanted to try them. It may well be that they are not suitable for where I have been planning on using them in this project and if not I need to change my design, but I had hoped that they would work as they would form a nice clean looking corner joint.

I will wait for your reply if I can submit this reply, hope it works this time.

Jerry
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Last edited by Jerry Bowen; 06-26-2014 at 09:29 AM.
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