Question: Biscuites vs. Doweles, Asking Harry's Opinion As Well As Others - Page 6 - Router Forums
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post #51 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-29-2014, 10:48 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stick486 View Post
Jerry...
I have that jig..
it's great...
I believe it's operator and not jig issues..
If you are really going to dumpster it, let me know.... I would love to have another...
Stick,
I'm so confident in the jig that I seriously doubt if it will be dumpted. Since you own one, you know why I'm so conficent that it work for the project.

Jerry
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post #52 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-29-2014, 09:33 PM
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What tests? Quote:
"What we hear most – and agree with - is that biscuits joints serve best as a quick and easy way to keep glue-up parts in alignment, and that they add appreciable pull-apart to strength joints that would be otherwise too weak to stand on their own – like butt joints and miter joints. Doweled joints, on the other hand, are stronger – especially when it comes to shear strength – but usually take longer to make. This popular conclusion also echoes the findings of the “Wood Joint Torture Test”, published in the November, 2006 issue of Wood magazine, where dowels and biscuits were actually tested against one another under stress in a variety of joints."

From here: Doweling vs. Biscuit Joints / Rockler How-to
Theo- I have to agree with you Theo.

My real world experience, seeing what lasts and fails at customers residences... and have to take apart, break down, rebuild, repair and sometimes to destroy things with different joining techniques... Just don't show biscuit joining as being better/stronger than dowels.

When I started, years ago when I was an apprentice... and many years later as a Master Carpenter training apprentices... one thing we did do was have them practice a joining techniques, then have them make it fail. Doing that, you can see for yourself what works and doesn't. That sort of breaks the molds on a lot of myths. Also gives someone the practice to make things better and stronger.

I can't say that was or is universal, but it taught me allot about how things really worked. (or not)

I know Jerry just got a new doweling jig and has been practicing. I think that would do well.

I know he also has a new miter-lock joint bit, which would do well.

If he had a mind to, he could combine using both... Or do a miter-lock with adding contrasting colored dovetail keys... (Like I mentioned before.) I know he is aching to practice with that miter-lock bit. Harry has done a few threads on spline key jigs, which could be converted easily to cutting dovetail keys... And Jerry does have an Incra system. You want to practice on things with higher end furnishing... And other higher skills...

*** Like I started getting into, sometimes my customers see or know something is built a certain way, and they willing to pay extra for that. I have customer that looks for dovetails and M&T joiining. They are willing to pay extar to have that. Most M&T joining, you do not see... But if they can see dovetails... they take interest. It is distincintive and shows a higher skill level. Dovetails keys are done into mitered joints... and what better than to add them to a good-miter lock joint, eh?

I've done a lot of M&T joining. I've only done 2 end-of-bed blanket chest in what could be considered true Mortise an tenon joinery. That is one furnishing that you just don't commonly think of M&T joinery in it's construction. Those two were raised panel chests, with the frames were rail and stile with M&T joinery.

Spline joinery is more common in the higher end chests. Some others that could have remotely or absractly been considered as M&T, but were still more along the lines of blind dados or partial splines... just throwing out ideas...

"Don't worry, I saw this work in a cartoon once."
"Usually learning skills and tooling involves a progression of logical steps."

Last edited by MAFoElffen; 06-29-2014 at 10:25 PM.
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post #53 of 66 (permalink) Old 07-21-2014, 03:15 PM
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Mike,
This post is, in my opinion anyway, an outstanding tretise on the subject of joinery. As everyone that follows me on the foum knows, I did buy the miter lock bits and with the set up jig I was able to make the cuts right off the bat. Also, as I said, all of the parts for my project are cut out including the corners with the miter lock joints cut in them. I got hung up in my attempt to construct the lid, spent a lot of time trying to overcome a mistake, consequently the assembly of the chest really got delayed. This thread got started and the subject of the miter lock joint has come up and may be a good thing. I say that because if it had not come up and I had gone ahead and used the design and it did not work, I would have been in for another disappointment. However, I'm not certain that you completely nixed the idea. The material is 3/4" thick. That means that the the distance across the 45 degree cut is .75 x 1.4142" or about .86" and the miter lock cuts are cut into that increasing the surface considerably more than that which when your explanatation is applied, that being the importance of surface area, the joint begins to look like it "might work".

This is where I get into trouble with my interest in woodworking. I think along these lines of seeing that something might work and just can't leave it alone until I try it and find out for myself why it will or won't work. Finding out for myself is the lure of it and what causes some to not understand. I have no problem with finding out that I'm wrong, that is how I learn which is repeat of what I have said so many times before..

Today I e-mailed a member of the forum that has been a big help to me. I told him that I have seriously thought of selling all of my tools and finding a new hobby due to the fact that woodworking is not something that I have a natural instinct for. That may well be true and what I need to admit to myself and stay focused on is that perhaps I am more interested in experimenting than I am in completing a project. This tendency may not be such a bad thing but maybe it's so different from the mentality of the majority of the members of the forum that it is the reason that I seem to always be running against the grain. I'm just trying to figure out why I have, from the get go, run against the norm of the forum.

I am who I am, and I think that I just need to except that and keep doing things my way and not let what others say bother me so much. Being a wonderfully talented woodworker may not need to be one's goal, but rather doing what one enjoys with one's woodworking endeavors may be much more important. This thread, while being somewhat controversial may be just what the doctor ordered in order for me to figure out what is going on with me. Believe me, I have been doing some serious soul searching and I thank all of the members that have ppsted to the thread, you have all been of help to me in my beginning to understand myself.

Jerry
Jerry, I'm not going to weigh in on the different methods.....I just use the tools that I have. If you enjoy wood working and experimenting then keep the tools and keep at it. Nobody ever said that only world class level craftsman should do it and everybody else should sell their tools and go home. If you build it and it doesn't work at least you will have learned from your own experience and it will be easier the next time. If it's not an issue of time or $ then have fun, experiment, and then you will be the expert on what does and doesn't work! Lastly, don't take life too seriously because nobody gets out alive.
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post #54 of 66 (permalink) Old 07-14-2019, 02:28 AM
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Default Biscuit Jointer Recommendations

Looking to buy a Biscuit jointer and, based on your experience, would like some inputs on which brands and models you feel I should seriously consider.

Thanks

Willie Osgood
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post #55 of 66 (permalink) Old 07-14-2019, 03:02 AM
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I have a Porter Cable 557 and I've used Dewalts (can't remember a model number). The PC is more versatile in my opinion in that it can be adjusted in more ways, especially if you want to reinforce miter joints, but the DWs I used seemed more powerful even though they were a bit lighter.
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post #56 of 66 (permalink) Old 07-14-2019, 04:30 AM
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I did something similar withy a wood counter top, used dowels, but just couldn't get the top sections close to OK. Cut it apart and did it again with biscuts, then spent manydays sanding. Today I would have used either pocket screws or a spline.

The more I do, the less I accomplish.
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post #57 of 66 (permalink) Old 07-14-2019, 06:31 AM
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spline....
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This would have been the week that I'd have finished chewing thru the restraints...
If only new layers hadn't been added....

Stick....
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
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post #58 of 66 (permalink) Old 07-14-2019, 07:58 AM
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Being in Australia I can't suggest a brand for members in America but I can state that since I bought a cheap GMC (no longer in business) biscuit jointer I have never used dowels, which require careful measuring and in my opinion many of the dowelling jigs on the market leave a lot to be desired. Biscuits on the other hand require no measuring and give perfect alignment, a surprising amount of strength and the adhesive does the rest.
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post #59 of 66 (permalink) Old 07-14-2019, 12:18 PM
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I have and occasionally use the Porter Cable. Nice machine, pretty fast to use.

The more I do, the less I accomplish.
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post #60 of 66 (permalink) Old 07-14-2019, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertRatTom View Post
I did something similar withy a wood counter top, used dowels, but just couldn't get the top sections close to OK. Cut it apart and did it again with biscuts, then spent manydays sanding. Today I would have used either pocket screws or a spline.
On something like a table top or where you need to edge join 2 or more boards with insurance that they won't pull apart and have the joint crack then I would also use splines. But on something like a picture frame miter where you don't want the spline to show then biscuits are hard to beat. Even if you didn't care if the spline showed, a biscuit joiner is much quicker. The biscuit joiner is also good for joining something like an apron to the underside of a table top if you are working with composite materials where there is no expansion and contraction. They can be good for joining melamine panels together in that way too. Melamine doesn't hold screws well so I like to use biscuits and dowels to reinforce joints.

So, in my opinion at least, biscuits do have their place in woodworking.
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