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Time to collect some dust...

18K views 54 replies 22 participants last post by  DesertRatTom 
#1 ·
So, it's time to take care of all that dust making my *I wont say where I put the saw" uninhabitable.

My saw (DW745) has a little tube that I supposed is used to put there a hose from a vacuum.. but, since I'm totally new to this, I'd like to know if is only that or there is something else I should consider before doing that.

I googled a bit and there are some complex thingies called cyclone, and some woodworkers have also big-flashy-expensive setups to collect dust... wont work for me.

Any help is appreciated!.
 
#5 ·
My shop is my garage so space was a primary consideration. I purchased the Dust Right components from Rockler, a 15 gallon fiber drum from Amazon and used a 1 HP dust collector from Harbor Freight to build a self contained unit that I store under the table saw wing when not in use. I have since built a roll around dolly for it using the wheels that came with the HF dust collector. It works pretty well.

Rockler recommends a larger drum size than I chose so I get more dust in the Harbor Freight collection bag than I would like but it still captures the majority of dust in the drum. I chose to mount the dust collection unit on the drum but it could be kept separate or you can use a shop vac to drive it. The setup in the picture is for my router. I have a 4" collector port on the TS so I have a 4" hose setup for that.
 

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#21 · (Edited)
My shop is my garage so space was a primary consideration. I purchased the Dust Right components from Rockler, a 15 gallon fiber drum from Amazon and used a 1 HP dust collector from Harbor Freight to build a self contained unit that I store under the table saw wing when not in use. I have since built a roll around dolly for it using the wheels that came with the HF dust collector. It works pretty well.
I've been badly in need of finally adding proper dust collection to my router, and I was ready to spend perhaps $100-150 on a higher-powered shopvac, which would mostly, but not entirely, be used for router DC. I thought a real C would cost way more than that, and have now realized that is not so, at least as long as I shop at Harbor Freight. Given the relative small amount of woodwork that I do, their level of durability is probably quite acceptable for me.

(Recently, I came across a post in a DC discussion by Mike "from Detroit" where he says that a shop vac is always better for DC, but I can't find it now and I have to assume that I'm misunderstanding something there, or missed something else in that discussion that makes it true for the particular situation. Perhaps large-chip collection or something like that. I am never going to own any power tool that produces anything much bigger than router dust, other than perhaps tiny plywood chips when cleaning an edge. My problem is on the other end of the scale, with fine MDF dust.)

But which one?

The photo that went with the quote above showed HF's "mini" DC, "1 hp", $60:
1 HP Mini Dust Collector

This was the first HF DC setup I've seen on this forum that didn't use the $210 "2 hp" model.

I've not seen any use of the medium model, "portable", also described as 1 hp, but a bit bigger than the $60 1 hp model, perhaps more durable due to being less stressed? $120 right now.
Portable Dust Collector - 13 Gallon

The 2 hp model, which would be great if to just go all-out with, would likely be too much for my basement power circuit, which I intend to upgrade some day, but that won't be any time soon.

The little 1 hp, for half the money sounds great at first. But then, it has some bad reviews for short-lived motor brushes, and generally, for $60 vs $120, I'd probably still rather have the tougher model and understress it.

Does anybody have any experience with the middle model, or side-by-side experience with both 1 hp models?

I notice that while they are both "1 hp", the little one is about 900 CFM vs the bigger one's 600 CFM, so it's got even less vac. strength?

I'd be building a small Thien separator, either way. If the filters aren't good enough, I can vent outside until I add a better one.
-- actually, does that rule out the weaker, higher-CFM model - more volume that'll need pushing through a more restrictive filter?
 
#15 ·
Would be there any problem to just connect the hose of the vacuum to the dust pipe of the saw?.
No and yes.

Hooking your saw to Just a shop vac is better than to nothing at all in that it will collect sawdust. But being a shop vac, they end up in blowing fines all over your shop. (unless you add a pleated or drywall filter. The end effect may be better or worse. So then something better may be needed.

A separator is most useful to separate pieces before an impeller, likr how it is in a DC. Used with a shop vac, it separates more of the fines and can expand the capacity of the collection before you have to empty it.

You could certainly build one, but somethings, it's easier or cheaper just to buy something already finished and working. (Especially if you don't know how they work or how to build one.) A percentage of people want to spent project time on actual projects.
 
#7 ·
Rockler also has a number of various sized adapter, reduction, etc. goodies. Research 'blast gates', also a Rockler item. You can keep everything hooked up, and only open the blast gate for the tool you are using. Air velocity is what carries the particles, not volume. That drum you have can be configured to act as a cyclone trap. Keeps most of the draw in there, so your fine filters don't clog up so often.
 
#8 ·
Buenos Aires must have some fairly well stocked equipment suppliers, so what's available in the way of dust collectors there?
It doesn't really help you if we suggest specific US/Canadian made products if you can't get your hands on them(?).
When we speak about dust collectors this is the type of thing we're talking about...
Dust Collectors : KMS Tools & Equipment from Vancouver BC, Largest selection of tools in Canada
When they refer to 'Dust Deputy, or cyclones, they're really just an accessory to do a better job of controlling the finer particles (not putting them back into the air you're breathing).
This is one of the classic homebuilds...
J. Phil Thien's Cyclone Separator Lid w/ the Thien Cyclone Separator Baffle
 
#9 · (Edited)
Now I'm beginning to understand what a dust collector is, it has nothing to do with a shop vac :p, they are on another level. Money wise too!.

So, there is little I can do with a shop vac right?, any other alternatives?, the MDF is killing me when I use the table saw, I have to find a way to remove the most I can at least.
 
#10 ·
Now I'm beggining to understand what a dust collector is, it has nothing to do with a shop vac :p, they are on another level. Money wise too!.

So, there is little I can do with a shop vac right?, any other alternatives?, the MDF is killing me when I use the table saw, I have to find a way to remove the most I can at least.
I am not familiar with your saw. Does it have a contained lower part where the dust piles up, or does it simply fall to the floor?

A table saw doesn't usually produce a lot of dust unless a dado blade is being used. The big dust makers are the planers, joiners and drum sanders.

I have two different dust collection set ups in my one car garage!
1) Shop vac connected to a Dust Deputy. The majority of dust or shavings drop out into the bucket the DD is mounted on. The filter inside the shop vac rarely gets filled or plugged. The cyclonic action simply makes the heavier than air particles drop out of the stream.

2) I have a 2 horsepower Harbor Freight dust collector with a drum upstream of it with the Thien separator inside of it. Same principle, the drop out and only the fine stuff make it through the blower into the filter. The filter is made by Wynn Environmental and is a .5 something or other, which means it filters the air the best possible.

I made the Thien separator from mdf and a pair of Rockler connectors.

I have the HF dust collector connected to a manifold with a pair of blast gates. One is connected to my table saw. The other blast gate allows me to hook up a 4 inch hose to the planer, sander or the joiner.

The shop vac also has a couple of smaller blast gates. One is connected to the dust port on the miter saw. The other gate is available so I can connect a hose to the router table fence dust port or to the random orbital sander or the pocket hole jig.

Here are a few pictures for you to look at.

Mike
 

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#11 ·
Stringer, my saw has something like this in the dust exit:



The dust does not fall in the floor, but it is contained inside. When that thing gets filled with dust, the air generated by the blade rotating throws dust to my face :p, sounds funny but it's not :(.

I just saw an article about how a cyclone is and the concept behind it, interesting, and it's homemade-able, which is cool.

But, I got a doubt, how powerful my shop vac has to be in order to actually extract dust?, because after I finish cutting MDF it's a mess..

(Also maybe my blade has a little wobble and it has a broad kerf, that probably doesn't help either)
 
#12 ·
Hopefully, someone with your saw will post up their thoughts. I say some dust collection is better that no dust collection.

In the mean time, rig up a fan to help filter the air you are breathing. Just a simple 20 x 20 inch fan with an air conditioner filter fitted over the inlet side. You will be surprised at the dust that will collect on the filter.
 

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#13 · (Edited)
these are examples.. these method of hook up seems to work the best...
BTDT w/ the vac.. just too much BS to put up w/...

so hook the 2.5 port to the the Wye.... don't use a T, use a Wye..


stick one these under the saw and hook that to the Wye..


hook the Wye to the at least a 600CFM, 1.5HP DC w/ 2 micron or finer filtration...

Done!!!
 
#14 ·
dw 745...

I believe this is that saw that N/a is talking about:

Dewalt 10" Compact Jobsite Table SAW DW745 NEW | eBay

For many years I used an old Hitachi small home vacuum cleaner as my main source of dust collection passing through a Triton Dust collection bucket. I still use this system for general dust collection in the 'shed'.

Triton Tools | Saw Table | DCA300 | Dust Collection Bucket 20Ltr

IMHO, a home vac running through a Thien dust cyclone should handle the dust from a saw such as this. The thein can be home made. The only proviso is that the vac should not be run continuously for any length of time. [make sure you unwind the internal cord when in use].

Thien Cyclone Separator - small cheap easy version - DIY - baffle top hat dust-separation work-shop - YouTube

I only had to upgrade when I purchased a jointer and thickness planer.

If you run vac without a separator system, the vac will clog up very quickly.
 
#16 ·
Ok, so now I'm beginning to understand things a little bit better, I need a separator (cyclone or thien) to avoid my shop vac to get instantly filled with saw dust, makes sense.

Now, about the fine dust (MDF produces a very fine dust that clouds the air) and the potency of the shop vac, what are my options?, how can I make my vac to suck almost everything?.
 
#17 ·
As you've already mentioned, there's a big difference (including price) between a shop vac and a dust collector. As your shop grows, you should budget for a DC in the future.

Meanwhile, as previously posted, any dust collection is usually better than none. A shop vac is relatively inexpensive, and you'll always have use for one in your shop, for general clean up, and for use with handheld tools, such as routers and sanders.

Make sure the shop vac has a good filter (preferably HEPA-type), or it will end up blowing a lot of small particle dust back out into your shop (and lungs). BTW, IMO the box fan/furnace filter setup is a mixed blessing. While it does indeed trap a lot of air borne dust, a furnace filter is not fine enough to filter the smallest (and most dangerous) particles, which the fan blows back into the shop air.

From what I can tell, the DW745 dust port is sized for a shop vac hose, so the simplest solution is to connect the shop vac hose directly to the saw. A better solution is to get a Dust Deputy, connected between the vac and the saw. You'd be amazed at how much dust it traps, which will make keeping your shop vac filter clean a lot easier. An alternative to buying a Dust Deputy would be making a Thien separator.

Finally- or first- get a good respirator mask. Wood Whisperer has some good recommendations. Good luck, and keep cutting!
 
#18 ·
Alright, to summarize (correct if Im wrong)

1- get a powerful shop vac (something like 2hp)
2- buy/make a Dust Deputy (cyclone) or a Thien separator (simpler cylone?)
3- connect shop vac to the DD/Thien, connect DD/thien to the exit of the saw.
4- profit.

About the respirator mask, I thought about it but it will only be useful as long as I have my air clean, and the only way to achieve that is if my dust collection system works. Otherwise I would have to live with the respirator mask forever!, like in one of those post-apocalypse movies :p.
 
#19 ·
I think you got it. About that cheap box fan...I set it on the table saw wing. It is amazing how much dust it captures out of the air. I don't use cheap filters, even though I have to change them more often. I also have a Grizzly air filtration machine hanging over the work bench.

Good luck.
Mike
 
#20 ·
I would imagine that the Owners Manual would say what to hook the saw up too. And since it has got brought up about the port being shop vac size, my guess is it was made to be hooked up to a shop vac. Lets not over think this. I'd also use a separator, I'm a Thien fan and have made several different sizes. I'd also like to mention that dust collection from a shop vac or even a dust collector isn't a guarantee that you will capture every spec of dust, thinking so is just plain unrealistic. But they do generally keep the dust down quite a bit, and cleanup time at the end of the day is reduced.
 
#22 ·
I've been badly in need of finally adding proper dust collection to my router
My advice (free and worth every cent) is to take a step back and go with a shop vac for router dust collection. DC's (like those you mentioned) produce a lot of air flow (cfm), but at a relatively low vacuum (static pressure). They're particularly good when you need to move a lot of air for picking up a lot of material and/or large dust particles, such as when using a planer or jointer. Tools such as that usually have dust collection ports 4" or more.

The problem with routers, ROS, and other handheld tools is that the dust port is much smaller- 1-1/2" or less, in my experience. While the big DC's can move a lot of air, they just can't suck enough through that small opening, because they don't have a hich vacuum.

OTOH, a shop vac has higher vacuum, so it can suck dust through that small port better (but isn't nearly as good for the big tools).

My personal rule of thumb is: If the tool dust port is < 2" (e.g. handheld tools), use a shop vac for DC. If the port is 4" (or more), go with a DC.

I have a couple of stationary tools (Ryobi BT3100 table saw and Ridgid band saw) which have 2-1/4" (shop vac hose size) ports. I go with whichever hose is more convenient at the moment. For those, I'm not sure I can tell any difference between my DC and shop vac for dust removal performance.

That said, in deciding on a shop vac, I'd look at how much vacuum it can produce, and how noisy it is. Personally, the high pitch whine of a shop vac is really irritating, to the point that I built an insulated box to hold my vac, and for long sessions use ear muffs.

Finally, the best dust collection equipment you can get is a good respirator mask, esp. when routing and sanding. Your lungs will thank you.

Just my .02 Good luck and keep cutting! :)
 
#31 ·
My advice (free and worth every cent) is to take a step back and go with a shop vac for router dust collection. DC's (like those you mentioned) produce a lot of air flow (cfm), but at a relatively low vacuum (static pressure). They're particularly good when you need to move a lot of air for picking up a lot of material and/or large dust particles, such as when using a planer or jointer. Tools such as that usually have dust collection ports 4" or more.

The problem with routers, ROS, and other handheld tools is that the dust port is much smaller- 1-1/2" or less, in my experience. While the big DC's can move a lot of air, they just can't suck enough through that small opening, because they don't have a high vacuum.

OTOH, a shop vac has higher vacuum, so it can suck dust through that small port better (but isn't nearly as good for the big tools).

My personal rule of thumb is: If the tool dust port is < 2" (e.g. handheld tools), use a shop vac for DC. If the port is 4" (or more), go with a DC.

I have a couple of stationary tools (Ryobi BT3100 table saw and Ridgid band saw) which have 2-1/4" (shop vac hose size) ports. I go with whichever hose is more convenient at the moment. For those, I'm not sure I can tell any difference between my DC and shop vac for dust removal performance.

That said, in deciding on a shop vac, I'd look at how much vacuum it can produce, and how noisy it is. Personally, the high pitch whine of a shop vac is really irritating, to the point that I built an insulated box to hold my vac, and for long sessions use ear muffs.

Finally, the best dust collection equipment you can get is a good respirator mask, esp. when routing and sanding. Your lungs will thank you.

Just my .02 Good luck and keep cutting! :)

I +1 to John, I'm connecting a shop vac to the router's fence and it works very nicely, almost no dust exposed. The only problem I noticed is when you have to make a groove with a considerable distance from the fence, so the dust goes.. everywhere, since the hose is connected to the fence. In this case, I think a hose that is under the router bit would work.

Even though I'm still unsure of how the dust ports will add up on the router table if I use both fence and router dust adapter (and/or router-box), I went ahead and got a shop vac.
From some reviews, the Ridgid WD1450 appeared to be the quietest/least-annoying of the high-powered shop vacuums.
I've only switched it on briefly, and it sounds more like old canister vacuums I remember from childhood. Indeed much less annoying, and even somewhat quieter, than my small old weak Ridgid vac.

Financially, it's also more pleasant than a DC: The green HF 1 hp DC would have been the same price after 20% coupon, but to use it without outside venting (not realistic for the foreseeable future, and I have Christmas presents to work on - we're down to 19'F tonight) would cost close to $200 in filtering.
Even if whatever dust separator I'm going to build means I never have to change the filter, that's a lot to spend right now compared to the Ridgid HEPA filter and drywall bag for less than $50.

...and some of that money may be best spent on a Bosch VAC05 hose, perhaps.

Hoses is where I'm a little unclear, and it's holding me back a little on the separator construction:
Freehand routing, most of the time - the dust adapter on the router gets the entire air flow, any hose between 1.25" (router) and separator pipe dia. will do.

Table routing: If I use the router dust adapter on the router, that's a 1.25" dia hose size. I assume that whenever that's hooked up, I don't really need any vacuum on the router box. But how much flow do I divert to the fence? (And at what point would this combo do better with a big DC?) Is a 2 x 2 x 1.25 Tee or Y sufficient, or do I need to restrict the fence flow more to maximize router adapter flow?

Similarly, I've been using a grid-shelf as a makeshift worktable with a cardboard box underneath to catch dust, and it's struck me that a more solid version of this, with suction on a sealed box underneath a porous (so to speak) table might be a good idea for freehand routing even with the dust collection on the router itself going.
Again, how would one split off the flow for this sort of thing?

Or am I overthinking this? Will the fence or table router dust adapter each work so well that only one is needed at a time (i.e. use blast gates)? Or do you just hook them together however the hoses fit?
Or do you give the router adapter more flow, such that the fence gets more just whenever the bit hole is mostly covered by the workpiece?

Or do you just change blast gate openings whenever it doesn't quite seem to catch enough?


On the separator side, do I spend extra money and wait time to get flanges like this
Air Tools Accessories - Woodstock 2-1/2 Universal Dust Port W1042
online and then fight with actually getting my hoses (not to mention a PVC elbow) to fit these,
or do I go the cheap all-PVC route which moves the fight to getting the PVC pipes to seal against the lid?
 
#23 ·
I +1 to John, I'm connecting a shop vac to the router's fence and it works very nicely, almost no dust exposed. The only problem I noticed is when you have to make a groove with a considerable distance from the fence, so the dust goes.. everywhere, since the hose is connected to the fence. In this case, I think a hose that is under the router bit would work.

(I keep being ignored by Dewalt about their dust collection adapter... they didn't provide it with the kit and they won't tell me where/if I can buy it somewhere else...)
 
#27 ·
Grooving on the router table
under table DC by connecting the hose directly to the router and shut off the fence pickup...
and go w/ a large bit hole in the insert...

welcome to the world of DeWalt CS....
wait till you need to do repairs.....

time to get get creative...
make your own pick up saddle to fit on one side of the router....

if you can find something like this adapt it to work...
no saddle available... make your own from a "T"...
PVC/ABS becomes very malleable at 120 to 130 degrees...
heat guns work really well too....
think thin plastic as in schedule 20....

slit the body of the "T"... heat it and spread it open...
make it fit and clamp it into place with a hose clamp(s)

...
 

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#24 ·
Grooving is the one job where the fence pickup doesn't work Pablo. I was considering, like you, to have pickups above and below the table. One company, possibly Incra, has started making their plate insert rings like spoke wheels and this design is supposed to help with under the table dust collection.

John is correct about reducing a 4" line down to 2 1/2" or less. There won't be enough air flow for the DC to work properly. If I were using my DC for the table I would open up another port farther down to keep the air flowing at the right volume and speed.
 
#26 ·
Those extra 4 holes around the bit opening should work the same way Pablo. I don't do much grooving on my router table so it has never been a high enough priority for me to have to deal with it yet.
 
#32 ·
Freehand routing, most of the time - the dust adapter on the router gets the entire air flow, any hose between 1.25" (router) and separator pipe dia. will do.
FWIW, my solutions, such as they are, to router dust collection involve substantial scrounging. For freehand routing, I want the hose which attached directly to the router to be as flexible as possible. I went to Goodwill and for $12 bought an upright vacuum cleaner with a sturdy but flexible hose; tore out the hose, threw the rest away.

But how much flow do I divert to the fence? (And at what point would this combo do better with a big DC?) Is a 2 x 2 x 1.25 Tee or Y sufficient, or do I need to restrict the fence flow more to maximize router adapter flow?
My approach, based on nothing other than gut thinking, is to move up to a DC when the (total) cross sectional area of hoses is the same as a 4" duct or more. I don't know of any formula about what fractions to split flow between the router port and the fence. It depends on a lot of variables, such as bit geometry, how much of the bit is exposed, how big the bit is relative to the base plate opening, bit size relative to fence opening, etc., etc., etc. I'd say try using a Y with the same size hose to the fence and fence, and see how it works with your setup.
Or am I overthinking this?
Perhaps! OTOH, I could very well be under thinking it. :D

it's struck me that a more solid version of this, with suction on a sealed box underneath a porous (so to speak) table might be a good idea for freehand routing even with the dust collection on the router itself going.
Good idea, in fact such a good idea that it's already been pretty well worked out :)
Google "downdraft table", and you'll find a lot of designs. Homemade ones often use perforated hardboard (peg board) as a table top. Since you want a lot of airflow, they work better with DC's than with shop vacs.
 
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