I simply cannot understand why America still prefers potentially dangerous routers. I am of course referring to fixed base routers where a very sharp bit is protruding from the tool and rotating at 20,000 plus rpm., many without soft start. This compares to plunge routers that as soon as the downward pressure is released, the bit instantly returns to the safety of the housing. It seems to me to be the "it was good enough for my father so it's good enough for me" syndrome. Come on guys, think about the versatility of the plunge router and how it can do everything that a fixed base one can plus LOTS more.
harrysin
I don't mean to be controversial BUT:
I base my remarks on my observations when reading posts on forums around the world. When I search for routers in America, the majority appear to be fixed base yet doing similar searches in other countries show the opposite. So perhaps "prefer" was not quite correct, perhaps I should have said something like "because in America the shops mainly seem to stock fixed base routers, I presume that newcomers to routing probably think that fixed base is the way to go" How's that Chris.
I bought the Bosch 1617 kit with fixed and plunge bases. The fixed base is always attached to my table. I exclusively use the plunge base for manual work.
GCG
GCG
The evidence that America prefers fixed-base routers can be seen on the web sites of Lowe's and Home Depot. Roughly half their top 10 or so best selling full size routers are fixed base, and the rest are dual-base kits with fixed and plunge bases. Plunge only models don't start appearing until lower down.
In the UK (and I think Europe generally), the major retailers don't sell any fixed bases at all. If you go to the specialist tool suppliers' sites, the best sellers are plunge models, with some interchangeable-base models appearing lower down the list. As far as I can tell, no-one is trying to sell any fixed-base-only models here.
As Harry says it could simply be that American retailers think their customers prefer fixed bases, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because they stock a poor choice of plunge models. But the free market works, right? If the customers wanted plunge-only routers they would sell them, or face losing market share to smaller suppliers who will. Conversely if the fixed-base only models didn't sell, they wouldn't be stocked.
In the UK (and I think Europe generally), the major retailers don't sell any fixed bases at all. If you go to the specialist tool suppliers' sites, the best sellers are plunge models, with some interchangeable-base models appearing lower down the list. As far as I can tell, no-one is trying to sell any fixed-base-only models here.
As Harry says it could simply be that American retailers think their customers prefer fixed bases, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because they stock a poor choice of plunge models. But the free market works, right? If the customers wanted plunge-only routers they would sell them, or face losing market share to smaller suppliers who will. Conversely if the fixed-base only models didn't sell, they wouldn't be stocked.
Hi Andy
I can only agree with you there. Plungers are intrinsically safer for portable/hand routing (because the cutter retracts) and can be used for jobs that fixed base routers can't do without risk such as mortising, shallow templated cut-outs, ets as well as being faster in use on tasks such as multi-pass routing where the depth is incremental (think kitchen worktop jointing jigs, etc). I can recall in the late 1960s that plunge routers were a rarity - Stanley had only one or possibly two models whilst Porter Cable, Black & Decker and Ingersoll-Rand routers available in the UK were all fixed base. The tool which changed the market was the Elu MOF31 (c.1965) - the first truly modern plunger (note the on-off switch by the right hand, plunge lock by the left hand):
In those days the majority of sales (in Europe) were to trade joiners and the advantages to a tradesman of the plunge base were so obvious that Elu pretty much turned the market on it's head (and captured a sizeable portion of it in the UK not to mention the rest of Western Europe). By the mid to late 1970s this led to the introduction of Makita, Ryobi and Hitachi plungers to the UK market - and the total demise of the fixed-base makes - whilst firms like Bosch, AEG, Metabo, etc (even B&D Europe with the British designed DN66) saw market opportunities in selling low-cost plunge routers of 500 to 600 watts
Hi Mike
True, fixed base routers can have advantages in router tables, but, I'd question your assertion that fixed base routers are more stable in hand held use. I've rarely experienced any plunge router tipping in use - to date, that is. They probably feel insecure and/or unstable to anyone used to a fixed base router, but I feel that is offset by the better view you get of the work, and the ability to speedily make multiple passes at different depths, not as fast or easy to do with a fixed base router. As to the combo kits, I just don't think they have enough power for heavy work - to me they are compromises. I find tools like the deWalt DW621 lighter and easier to use in many cases than a P-C or Bosch combo and of similar power output
Hi Doug
That's got to be the answer - lowest price. But the question I have to ask is, "What do the pros use in the USA?"
I still think that Harry's right on this one. But then my profile shows that I'm biased!
Regards
Phil
Hi Harry
I take it that you don't have a D-Handel router,you should try one out I'm sure you would like..
D-Handle router get the mass of the router down unlike a plunge router...and gives you more control of the router sometimes you just need to get to the edge of the board.
Not to say anything about that many use it to put in a lift on a router table and only need the barrel type motor..for me I use it on a Horizon.router table and a plunge router is just more junk you don't need, and if I need a plunge router I have the base on hand to do so..
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I take it that you don't have a D-Handel router,you should try one out I'm sure you would like..
D-Handle router get the mass of the router down unlike a plunge router...and gives you more control of the router sometimes you just need to get to the edge of the board.Not to say anything about that many use it to put in a lift on a router table and only need the barrel type motor..for me I use it on a Horizon.router table and a plunge router is just more junk you don't need, and if I need a plunge router I have the base on hand to do so..
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I learned long ago that if you are going to get involved with routers you are going to need more than one. That's why I have a high horsepower unit in my router table with a Woodpeckers lift, a D-handle router fixed base for freehand work and a plunge router for the more difficult/dangerous operations.
Each has its place though I do see your point Harry, not much safety in leaving a sharp metal object exposed if you don't need to.
Each has its place though I do see your point Harry, not much safety in leaving a sharp metal object exposed if you don't need to.
That is better, Harry. Thanks.
They both have their place.
Perhaps it is a simple situation where more people make router tables with them, and while a plunge router will also work in a table, a fixed base often makes more sense for an application like that.
I now have 3 plunge routers, and 3 fixed base routers. I would use plunge routers for hand routing (including skiis), and fixed base routers in tables or overhead or pantograph type applications.
They both have their place.
Perhaps it is a simple situation where more people make router tables with them, and while a plunge router will also work in a table, a fixed base often makes more sense for an application like that.
I now have 3 plunge routers, and 3 fixed base routers. I would use plunge routers for hand routing (including skiis), and fixed base routers in tables or overhead or pantograph type applications.
It could simply be a matter of people buying the cheapest... a fixed based router is generaly cheaper to make, so it's cheaper to buy. a lot of DIY types are going to grab the cheapest tool that fills the bill.
Lol
Really Harry, you don't want to be controversial? Since when? You seem to enjoy stirring the pot. :dance3:
Really Harry, you don't want to be controversial? Since when? You seem to enjoy stirring the pot. :dance3:
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Harry, are you suggesting people quit using router tables? Fixed or plunge base the bit is exposed the same way in a router table. Fixed bases usually have more stability than plunge bases. The highly popular combo kits offer an inexpensive way to have the best of both types.
Don't be a "Tom"! :sarcastic:
Don't be a "Tom"! :sarcastic:
My fixed base as well, has not seen the light of day, out from under my table. All hand held work is done with the plunge!
Well, let me humbly proclaim my vast lack of knowledge.
I had no idea that users in the U.S. preferred fixed based routers.
Why, is the question. Probably because of the price difference. Then, I'm sure that there are industrial applications where a plunge base would not be necessary.
For hand held use, I couldn't be without the plunge base.
I had no idea that users in the U.S. preferred fixed based routers.
Why, is the question. Probably because of the price difference. Then, I'm sure that there are industrial applications where a plunge base would not be necessary.
For hand held use, I couldn't be without the plunge base.
Well, as far as the danger goes I hardly consider my fixed base routers to be among the more dangerous tools in my shop and yes I do still have all portions of all ten fingers.
Besides my most recent acquisition that I have yet to try out I have 2 plunge routers and 2 that are fixed base.
Of these four 1 - 3.25hp plunge router is mounted in a stationary router table and 1 - 2hp fixed base router is mounted in a portable router table.
For hand use I have a DeWALT DW621K 2 HP VS Electronic Plunge Router and a DeWALT DW610K Router 1.5HP fixed base router W/rack and pinion height adjustment. The 621 is a great plunge router but, I often prefer the smaller size, lower center of gravity and the rack and pinion height adjustment of the 610.
They both have their place and IMHO any added danger is a non-issue. I didn't reach 55yrs of age with all 10 fingers by being careless.
Besides my most recent acquisition that I have yet to try out I have 2 plunge routers and 2 that are fixed base.
Of these four 1 - 3.25hp plunge router is mounted in a stationary router table and 1 - 2hp fixed base router is mounted in a portable router table.
For hand use I have a DeWALT DW621K 2 HP VS Electronic Plunge Router and a DeWALT DW610K Router 1.5HP fixed base router W/rack and pinion height adjustment. The 621 is a great plunge router but, I often prefer the smaller size, lower center of gravity and the rack and pinion height adjustment of the 610.
They both have their place and IMHO any added danger is a non-issue. I didn't reach 55yrs of age with all 10 fingers by being careless.
Harry if I was to give a response to the OP I would say generally speaking most people are using table routers opposed to freehand work. Don't quote me on it because I could very well be wrong. My father owns a router as well as a router table and until I asked him about routing I had never in my 34 years on earth seen him use one.
Harry-
Yes you do. You do like to stir things up don't you?
I use both base styles. I don't keep track of what I use more or less. I don't really have a preference except in what I'm doing at the time / for what purpose needs to be done. You know, the right tool for the job at hand.
Sorry, that I couldn't add to any controversy in my answer.
Yes you do. You do like to stir things up don't you?
I use both base styles. I don't keep track of what I use more or less. I don't really have a preference except in what I'm doing at the time / for what purpose needs to be done. You know, the right tool for the job at hand.
Sorry, that I couldn't add to any controversy in my answer.
Barb, I am willing to bet a nickel cash money that you like the feel of this router. :sarcastic:
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Well, well, well, ME being accused of being controversial! But seriously guys, so far as potential danger is concerned with fixed base routers, it isn't just fingers that are in danger but one's torso being ripped open. Just visualise a fixed speed fixed base router laying on it's side on the bench with 2" of bit protruding and it's power switch on, The power plug has been correctly removed whilst the bit was fitted. Now the plug is inserted into the power point and the router flies off the bench!
As for ease of height adjustment when below the table, most plunge routers need only one hand beneath the bench for course or micro adjustment whereas fixed base in all the many demonstrations that I've witnessed require either lifting the router out of the table or using two hands.
My hope is that forum members new to routing will take note from not only my opinions but also those from so many members who have responded to this post. If all future routers were to be fixed base, routing would go back to the last century, whereas if they were all to be of the plunge type, it would be a big step for mankind!
I have to say that I am surprised that health and safety, worksafe etc. organisations haven't had the potential dangers inherent with fixed base routers brought to their attention, if it were to be it wouldn't surprise me if laws were brought in around the world phasing out these routers. This quite easily could lead to manufacturers and sellers offering big trade-in deals which of course would have the dual effect of removing fixed base routers and give impetus to the sale of plunge routers.
There now, nothing controversial there!
As for ease of height adjustment when below the table, most plunge routers need only one hand beneath the bench for course or micro adjustment whereas fixed base in all the many demonstrations that I've witnessed require either lifting the router out of the table or using two hands.
My hope is that forum members new to routing will take note from not only my opinions but also those from so many members who have responded to this post. If all future routers were to be fixed base, routing would go back to the last century, whereas if they were all to be of the plunge type, it would be a big step for mankind!
I have to say that I am surprised that health and safety, worksafe etc. organisations haven't had the potential dangers inherent with fixed base routers brought to their attention, if it were to be it wouldn't surprise me if laws were brought in around the world phasing out these routers. This quite easily could lead to manufacturers and sellers offering big trade-in deals which of course would have the dual effect of removing fixed base routers and give impetus to the sale of plunge routers.
There now, nothing controversial there!
Is this a real problem or is this a problem looking for a place to happen? How many injuries have been identified directly related to fixed base routers compared to injuries sustained by plunge routers worldwide? Do we really need government regulations to protect us from ourselves? Personally, I'm tired of big government intruding into my life. There is no legislation that can stop idiots from harming themselves but well meaning people continue to strangle those of us that still have a brain in our heads. We have a choice to own both types of routers so why not leave it up to us instead of some nameless government entity making the choice for us. BTW, I own both types and have never had an issue with my fixed base offset laminate trimmer.
I'm sure the health and safety organisations have bigger fish to fry. Maybe they can look at fixed base routers when they've finished eliminating table saw accidents!
Harry's original question was about consumer choice. Phil's history lesson was quite interesting I thought. Why did European consumers embrace Elu's invention to such a degree that the design completely took over the market, while US consumers to a large extent rejected it? Different sorts of woodworkers, doing different things? Not-invented-here syndrome?
Harry's original question was about consumer choice. Phil's history lesson was quite interesting I thought. Why did European consumers embrace Elu's invention to such a degree that the design completely took over the market, while US consumers to a large extent rejected it? Different sorts of woodworkers, doing different things? Not-invented-here syndrome?
Barb, it may surprize you to hear I am glad you said that. Most people are at a loss when it comes to deciding on new tools. Many are similar in appearance and all you can do in most stores is hold one. Online reviews at sales sites like Amazon are often colored with negative comments from people who didn't read the manual or wanted to return a tool for some other reason. Many people find magazine testing suspect since they get paid to promote new tools. This is where the forums come in; here you get unbiased reviews from other members. I buy different brands of tools so I can try them and give information to members... most of the tools go on to find new homes. Note that I said information and not opinion. No one brand of tool has everything right and people can only choose based on what is right for them. The best way to choose a new tool is to try it hands on and decide for yourself. You will get the chance to try a Ryobi and the Colt palm routers as well as the DeWalt 611 compact router. Bring your favorite to compare against them. This is one of the things we do at our Sawdust Saturday get togethers.
Plunge versus Fixed base and quality of routers in N Amarica
While plunge router bases’s are neat, I still have a hard time going through the fiddling required, to use mine unless I'm letter cutting etc. My uses are for the most part are slot cutting to fit & glue in 90 degree components of projects, or mounting it under my router table and since my Bosch router has the feature of being adjustable through the bottom plate it spends 80 % of it’s time mounted under the table where the plunge base is of not advantage .
Safety wise : Routers of any type have always terrified me, and that's a good thing so the switch is off and it’s unplugged any time I play / fiddle with it.
North American marketing Quality :
Other than everyone likes overpriced exotic stuff ( hence Bugatti Veyron down to Nissan GTR etc. ) the practical difference between buying a good quality ( there is low end stuff to avoid no matter the product ) family sedan with upgrade features to keep you happy & comfy or spending 200% to 300% more to by a Mercedes which is probable 130% better a vehicle ( taking style and badge value out of the equation ) does not make any economic sense especially if you consider, your use, will never really push or exceed the limits of the cheaper vehicle.
SO.... the question becomes do I spend a pile of money so I can show off that I own FESTOOL or the like ( they certainly make great stuff ) or do I buy BOSCH , DEWALT etc. which are fine products and will do more than I'll ever do. I’m on my 2nd Dewalt – it took 16 years to wear out the 1st one – The Bosch I bought 6 months ago blows me away with power and features.
That ought to get the discussion heated up !
While plunge router bases’s are neat, I still have a hard time going through the fiddling required, to use mine unless I'm letter cutting etc. My uses are for the most part are slot cutting to fit & glue in 90 degree components of projects, or mounting it under my router table and since my Bosch router has the feature of being adjustable through the bottom plate it spends 80 % of it’s time mounted under the table where the plunge base is of not advantage .
Safety wise : Routers of any type have always terrified me, and that's a good thing so the switch is off and it’s unplugged any time I play / fiddle with it.
North American marketing Quality :
Other than everyone likes overpriced exotic stuff ( hence Bugatti Veyron down to Nissan GTR etc. ) the practical difference between buying a good quality ( there is low end stuff to avoid no matter the product ) family sedan with upgrade features to keep you happy & comfy or spending 200% to 300% more to by a Mercedes which is probable 130% better a vehicle ( taking style and badge value out of the equation ) does not make any economic sense especially if you consider, your use, will never really push or exceed the limits of the cheaper vehicle.
SO.... the question becomes do I spend a pile of money so I can show off that I own FESTOOL or the like ( they certainly make great stuff ) or do I buy BOSCH , DEWALT etc. which are fine products and will do more than I'll ever do. I’m on my 2nd Dewalt – it took 16 years to wear out the 1st one – The Bosch I bought 6 months ago blows me away with power and features.
That ought to get the discussion heated up !
I'm curious
Do the plunge routers sold elsewhere (outside of North America) have a locking lever so they can be locked down at a specific depth?
Both of my plunge bases have locking levers, so they can be locked at a specific depth and you don't have to keep constant downward pressure on them. Is this not the same as the terribly dangerous fixed base?
Maybe we should legislate all routers out of existence. Or make them out of Nerf. Nerf routers for everyone, and no wood either, Splinters!!!! Oh the horror!
Tongue firmly planted in cheek...
Do the plunge routers sold elsewhere (outside of North America) have a locking lever so they can be locked down at a specific depth?
Both of my plunge bases have locking levers, so they can be locked at a specific depth and you don't have to keep constant downward pressure on them. Is this not the same as the terribly dangerous fixed base?
Maybe we should legislate all routers out of existence. Or make them out of Nerf. Nerf routers for everyone, and no wood either, Splinters!!!! Oh the horror!
Tongue firmly planted in cheek...
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