I had a hard time figuring out the layout of the kitchen.
I have a few questions...

What type of material will be used for the cabinet boxes?
Will they be painted or stained/finished?
What type of construction do you plan to use?
What style for the doors/drawer fronts?
What kind of hardware for the drawers and doors?
Will the upper cabinets go to the ceiling or not?
Crown molding? UGH!!! :frown:

Hmmm...better check the local codes for the stove. Seems to me there is a minimum amount of counter space required so the cook can quickly sit a hot pot down, if you know what I mean. :grin:

I might be able to help with a basic drawing in Sketchup if you can give more details and dimensions of the layout.

 

I had a hard time figuring out the layout of the kitchen.
I have a few questions...

What type of material will be used for the cabinet boxes? 3/4 Maple Plywood for carcass and solid maple for faces
Will they be painted or stained/finished? Nothing finalized yet, but I believe stained.
What type of construction do you plan to use? Pocket Holes
What style for the doors/drawer fronts? Depends on the budget, ideally raised panel, but shaker syle if need be.
What kind of hardware for the drawers and doors? Still in the works depends on budget, probably basic door slides, the only thing the person wants are self closing hinges.
Will the upper cabinets go to the ceiling or not? The home owner wants them to go to the ceiling.
Crown molding? UGH!!! :frown: I am not doing the entire kitchen or else I'd be doing it differently. I am actually attaching the cabinets to pre-existing boxes that come down maybe 10 inches from the ceiling. So no crown molding.

Hmmm...better check the local codes for the stove. Seems to me there is a minimum amount of counter space required so the cook can quickly sit a hot pot down, if you know what I mean. :grin: There will be 24 inches of counter top between the sink and the stove so plenty of room there.

I might be able to help with a basic drawing in Sketchup if you can give more details and dimensions of the layout.

I answered most of everything above which should be bolded. As far as lay out I think I pretty much have a decent layout for the base cabinets. I could post up a really rough sketch later so you can get an idea of the lay out. I really have very little room to do much with. At the moment I am still trying to get a good idea on the price. Like I mentioned he only has $4000 to work with which includes paying me.

There are more reasons than just changing trim on the door to leave the counter top back away from the opening. I would recommend 2-3" at least. Have someone hold anything, even a broomstick flush with it and walk in and out a few times with them holding it there and you'll see what I mean. I generally go with about 1 to 1 1/4" of overhang on the ends but my absolute minimum is 3/4". If you have a situation where the bottom of the wall sticks out farther than up higher then your boxes will be flush at the floor level but have a gap at the top. In this case you may need to slide the counter top farther back to close that gap up so that you don't have problems supporting the splash board so this extra length has to be accounted for in the building (or ordering) of it.

a rough drawing of the layout would be helpful here. I'm nit sure if there are codes requiring counter top next to the stove or not but they are handy. Generally there is just enough room for the stove to slide into the opening. If you are worried about how square the wall are then stand a straight strip of ply against the wall and hold a level against it and see if the top or bottom are leaning. Holding the strip vertical measure from the shortest point to the stove and build to that. Remember that you should be adding a splash board at the back of the counter top and they are meant to hide problems like that, as long as they aren't too severe, and your silicone caulking will hide the minor imperfections on top of that (waves in the wall, also providing they aren't too severe).

If you are using plywood that's okay if you paint them so that the plies don't show. Otherwise you need to band them and if you plan on profiling them after then that means using solid wood strips. That's not a lot of money to do that but it is time consuming.

There is one cardinal rule in building counter tops. Do Not try to wrap the laminate around a corner. I can guarantee you that it will crack in time if you do. I don't think I've ever seen a case where it didn't.

As I said, we really need a fair sketch to be sure of what we are suggesting.

I will work on the sketch. I have a few already but they are a mess with tons of measurements on them. I'm by no means an artist. I was hoping to grab some graph paper later today so I could get a better more presentable diagram. As far as counter tops at this point in time its not my responsibility, I am sure they will want me to help but they were taking care of that last time I talked to them. As far as the countertop next to stove. There will counters on the left side of the stove just not the right. To be honest I am not even certain their kitchen could be made to have counters on both sides without moving the sink which just wouldn't work. The space I am working with is rectangular. 139 inches, by maybe 129 inches working around 3 door ways and a fridge that will be built into an old pantry.

Some reading material for ya...

Hopefully, you will get some inspiration or ideas you can use.

Maragrets kitchen remodel. UGH, it was ugly from start to finish.
http://www.routerforums.com/show-n-tell/115506-kitchen-remodel-quote-request-2.html

Blake and JoAnne's kitchen remodel
http://www.routerforums.com/show-n-tell/73545-blake-joannes-kitchen-remodel.html

Trudi and Archie's Rental Duplex
http://www.routerforums.com/show-n-tell/103106-trudi-archies-rental-duplex.html

Trudi and Archie's Rent House
http://www.routerforums.com/show-n-tell/47036-trudi-archies-kitchen-cabinets.html

Our breakfast room buffett
http://www.routerforums.com/show-n-tell/44161-custom-buffet.html

Our Kitchen Remodel
http://www.routerforums.com/show-n-tell/47429-our-kitchen-remodel.html

I have been watching video after video the past few days of how to make them. It seems pretty straight forward and simple, it all depends on how fancy I want to get. I essentially have free reign on how I want to make them as long as it works within the budget. Though I do like some of those images for myself. I do still need to build my own kitchen. Probably not a popular choice but I am going with a butcher block counter for mine.

what is total LF of cabinets.. upper and lower..
how many corners..
what is going on the wall at the stove..
whose buying the hardware and glides..
what type of glides...
what type of finish...
who is doing the finishing..

go to a restore, get cabinets and reface them...

Its just a rough number but 24 feet base and 25.25 for uppers. Two lower and two upper corners. One upper and one lower with lazy susan. I am responsible for buying all the hardware and lumber minus counter tops. I know I am getting self closing hinges as they requested it. I haven't gotten that far on the glides aspect of the build. They mentioned staining but exact details were not given just yet. Already mentioned it. Getting used cabinets is not what they want, nor are store bought ones. Not sure why, its not my money its just what they want.

...and I modeled my cabinets and workflow after Kris Reynolds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3uOkMK4UqM&t=24s

I'll check it out tonight.

 

There are more reasons than just changing trim on the door to leave the counter top back away from the opening. I would recommend 2-3" at least. Have someone hold anything, even a broomstick flush with it and walk in and out a few times with them holding it there and you'll see what I mean. I generally go with about 1 to 1 1/4" of overhang on the ends but my absolute minimum is 3/4". If you have a situation where the bottom of the wall sticks out farther than up higher then your boxes will be flush at the floor level but have a gap at the top. In this case you may need to slide the counter top farther back to close that gap up so that you don't have problems supporting the splash board so this extra length has to be accounted for in the building (or ordering) of it.

a rough drawing of the layout would be helpful here. I'm nit sure if there are codes requiring counter top next to the stove or not but they are handy. Generally there is just enough room for the stove to slide into the opening. If you are worried about how square the wall are then stand a straight strip of ply against the wall and hold a level against it and see if the top or bottom are leaning. Holding the strip vertical measure from the shortest point to the stove and build to that. Remember that you should be adding a splash board at the back of the counter top and they are meant to hide problems like that, as long as they aren't too severe, and your silicone caulking will hide the minor imperfections on top of that (waves in the wall, also providing they aren't too severe).

If you are using plywood that's okay if you paint them so that the plies don't show. Otherwise you need to band them and if you plan on profiling them after then that means using solid wood strips. That's not a lot of money to do that but it is time consuming.

There is one cardinal rule in building counter tops. Do Not try to wrap the laminate around a corner. I can guarantee you that it will crack in time if you do. I don't think I've ever seen a case where it didn't.

As I said, we really need a fair sketch to be sure of what we are suggesting.

 

Some reading material for ya...

Hopefully, you will get some inspiration or ideas you can use.

Maragrets kitchen remodel. UGH, it was ugly from start to finish.
http://www.routerforums.com/show-n-tell/115506-kitchen-remodel-quote-request-2.html

Blake and JoAnne's kitchen remodel
http://www.routerforums.com/show-n-tell/73545-blake-joannes-kitchen-remodel.html

Trudi and Archie's Rental Duplex
http://www.routerforums.com/show-n-tell/103106-trudi-archies-rental-duplex.html

Trudi and Archie's Rent House
http://www.routerforums.com/show-n-tell/47036-trudi-archies-kitchen-cabinets.html

Our breakfast room buffett
http://www.routerforums.com/show-n-tell/44161-custom-buffet.html

Our Kitchen Remodel
http://www.routerforums.com/show-n-tell/47429-our-kitchen-remodel.html

 

On another portion of the kitchen, I have a Lazy Susan corner cabinet, then a dishwasher space, then about 16 inches left to work with. He wants a small cabinet built on the other side of the dishwasher. My question is since it will border a door way how much does a counter top over hang on the end of a cabinet that isn't next to a stove? Is it the standard 1 inch or flush? This will determine how wide a cabinet I build since there isn't a lot of room to work with.

I built my cabinet so it would end 2 inches from the walk-thru. The counter top guys let the top overhang about 1 1/2 inches. It has a bull nose style edge treatment. No problem walking past it into the kitchen.

And I managed to squeeze in a utensil drawer adjacent to the dishwasher. The cabinet is 14 inches wide. Just barely wide enough to build drawers so the utensil drawer could be utilized. Just a thought.

 

what is total LF of cabinets.. upper and lower..
how many corners..
what is going on the wall at the stove..
whose buying the hardware and glides..
what type of glides...
what type of finish...
who is doing the finishing..

go to a restore, get cabinets and reface them...

 

...and I modeled my cabinets and workflow after Kris Reynolds.

 

One question before I forget. A couple videos mentioned building my face frame 1/4 wider than the carcass on each side, meaning two cabinets butted together would have a 1/2 gap in between. Is this normal? I am guessing this is incase something isn't squared up perfectly to make them easier to install? Here is a really quick sketch I just did. I know its terrible.

On the top right are two door ways sharing one corner. The north most door way is where you enter the kitchen, immediately to the right is where the fridge will be sunk into the wall where the pantry currently is. On the south wall above where it says 36 is where the kitchen window is. On the left side of the sketch is where a door way is going to a back porch. There is approx. 40 inches from door frame to the wall where the stove will go. The numbers are the size of the base cabinets.

The reason the 36 inch on the south wall is where it is, is because I have to center the sink below the window. They already bought the sink, and the smallest cabinet that can be used is a 36 inch.

 

One question before I forget. A couple videos mentioned building my face frame 1/4 wider than the carcass on each side, meaning two cabinets butted together would have a 1/2 gap in between. Is this normal? I am guessing this is incase something isn't squared up perfectly to make them easier to install?

Yes. Take a minute and go to the big box store and check out the particle board cabinets. Saying that, I build my face frames first. That way I know I can lay them out and they will fit. Then I build the boxes a little smaller. Pocket screws for the frames and to attach the frames to the boxes if they won't be seen. On a couple, I put a 1/4 inch piece of cabinet grade Birch on the side that is seen to cover the pocket holes. Used construction adhesive. :grin:

Here is a really quick sketch I just did. I know its terrible. Always better than nothing.

Thanks for the details.

 

I don't have a Lazy Susan cabinet pre-drawn, so these will have to do. I hope they help.

In your design, keep in mind that the stiles for the cabinets where the 90 deg is must be a little wider so doors and/or drawers can be opened.

 

And the Sink/Stove side.

Hope this helps you think about what all will be entailed such as...

Drawers or doors. Drawers cost more. A simple mid shelf vs two-three-four drawers. And hardware for them also!

Maple is costly around these parts if that is what you will be using for the face frames.
Maple plywood is fairly expensive also...$50 plus at our local big box stores. Cabinet grade from local lumber yard is more expensive. I used pre-finished Birch for our cabinet carcases. No finishing on the inside required.

So basically, each cabinet would be 34 1/2 inches tall with a toe kick built in. However, if the house is old with an unlevel floor, then it might be better to build ladder frames, install and level, then build the cabinets 31 inches tall so they will sit on top. Regardless, keep the height less than 32 inches so the plywood can be cut and not have a lot of waste. At 34 1/2 inches, other parts can be cut from the off cuts.

 

The main issue I see with your sketch is the corners. Corners are always a bit of a problem. With square corners you'll need a hinged door that folds at the corner and one as wide as the sketch shows will be impractical. Some incorporate a lazy susan in them but this drives up cost and usually means you are only storing small items on the lazy susan. The other normal is shelves used to store things like mixers and crock pots where you have to dig out what you want. The cavities are deep and wide but the openings are usually small. That means the boxes on either side will be wider than you show.

I can't get down on my hands and knees anymore to search for things on the back of a lower shelf and my wife is getting close to the same so the last cupboards I built for us has slide out shelves and I would never build anything else now. Basically they are shallow boxes but it would drive up the price noticeably to do that but you get a lot of value for that money. I could post pictures of them tomorrow if you would like to see.

 

You are misreading the sketch. The 36" measurement is the amount of space it takes up on the wall not the door. The cabinet face would take up around 18 inches. The person wants the corner cabinets. And requested one lazy susan lower and one upper.

Does anyone happen to have a list or a site I can go to that has cut lists for all different sizes of cabinets so I can figure out a cut list for each quickly and get a rough estimate of price?

 

One thing I have noticed is it seems pretty common now for people to use a ladder as the toe kick and just put square cabinet boxes on top of it after leveling it off. Would this be the way to go, or should I just build your standard cabinets with toe kicks built into them and use the old shim method? IF I have a separate toe kick ladder I would be worried about what my ends look like. If I use cabinets with the toe kick built into them I would be worried about a gap from wall or floor being out of square on ends but I would guess I could hide it with some trim/quarter round or something?

 

Whats a ladder? I hate separate toes on cabinets. Harder to install...One piece easy install...You are correct with trimming the gap with shoe at the bottom...

 

Stove in corner? No window?

 

The window is above the sink. There is no window in the corner where the Stove is.

The last kitchen we remodeled was in a house built on blocks in the 1950's. Nothing level or plumb. I decided early on to use the ladder frame for the toe kick. There was 3/4 inch difference in level from one side of the kitchen to the other. Everything had to be level because the granite top would be on three sides (U shaped kitchen).

It was much easier to install and level the frame vs installing the cabinets one at a time and leveling them. Since the floor was wooden, I screwed brackets to the frame sides and the floor. That made for a sturdy platform for the cabinets to sit on.

That is what I was starting to lean towards. I am actually going over to their place tonight. I'll bring my level along and see what I am dealing with. If its fairly level I will probably just go with the plans I had already wanted to use but if things are off I'll have to seriously consider building the toe kick separate.

@RebelworkWoodworking - Here is an example. I followed his work flow when remodeling the 1950's kitchen. Mainly because it had a wood floor and I could screw the brackets to it like Frank did in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gZhr7nIY_M

I actually watched that video this morning. Its what got me debating which method to use. I saw someone using EZ Levelers which looked interesting but would run the budget up far too much at $15 a pop needing a least two per cabinet.

I see.. There calling the loose toe board a "ladder". Correct?

Yes.

If you use a base it’s far more easy to level first, then install the cabinets.

Using a base means you gain an extra three inches or so in height, guaranteeing that you can get six 24x32 cabinet sides out of one piece of plywood, allowing for cabinets up to 36 inches tall.

You only have one exposed side showing. If you covered it with a frame and panel that matches your door you can make it long enough to cover the base.

If you use a frame and panel on the exposed ends, then you won’t have any exposed plywood, other then the insides of the cabinets. You can buy prefinished plywood, or use melamine, or even a relatively inexpensive plywood for your cabinets and finish the insides yourself, no need to use expensive plywood.


In woodworking there is always more then one way to accomplish something.

With every project I take on I learn that more and more. I'm only using the big box store stuff so its $52+tax minus 20% a sheet for 3/4 maple or oak ,. I have a bad habit of getting overwhelmed by too many choices.

 

The last kitchen we remodeled was in a house built on blocks in the 1950's. Nothing level or plumb. I decided early on to use the ladder frame for the toe kick. There was 3/4 inch difference in level from one side of the kitchen to the other. Everything had to be level because the granite top would be on three sides (U shaped kitchen).

It was much easier to install and level the frame vs installing the cabinets one at a time and leveling them. Since the floor was wooden, I screwed brackets to the frame sides and the floor. That made for a sturdy platform for the cabinets to sit on.

 

Ladder frame?

 

Never heard that one before...

 

common method..saves on material too..

 

If you use a base it’s far more easy to level first, then install the cabinets.

Using a base means you gain an extra three inches or so in height, guaranteeing that you can get six 24x32 cabinet sides out of one piece of plywood, allowing for cabinets up to 36 inches tall.

You only have one exposed side showing. If you covered it with a frame and panel that matches your door you can make it long enough to cover the base.

If you use a frame and panel on the exposed ends, then you won’t have any exposed plywood, other then the insides of the cabinets. You can buy prefinished plywood, or use melamine, or even a relatively inexpensive plywood for your cabinets and finish the insides yourself, no need to use expensive plywood.


In woodworking there is always more then one way to accomplish something.

 

Was this directed at me?

 

I see.. There calling the loose toe board a "ladder". Correct?

 

@RebelworkWoodworking - Here is an example. I followed his work flow when remodeling the 1950's kitchen. Mainly because it had a wood floor and I could screw the brackets to it like Frank did in this video.

 

Sorry fellers... We didn't call them ladders in the commercial shops. In the residential shops we didn't either. Never heard this term in 30 years as a commercial/residential cabinet maker. Maybe I need to start reading some of those books you guys talk about or maybe I should right one:wink:....

Yesterday,today and in the future they will still be called loose toes in the shops I've work in in Alabama,Missouri and Kansas..

 

Well the term did come from me so take that for what its worth, which isn't much. I heard the term a couple times in some videos and reading I did. Wasn't sure the exact terminology.

The cabinet overhangs a little bit. That cabinet was a custom build. I built the face frame to extend outward so the "finished" end panel would attach and look like part of the cabinet. I attached it with screws from the inside.

On the cabinet in our kitchen, I attached a piece of the knotty alder to the bottom of the toe kick. The black toe kick material is the rubber stuff purchased at Lowe's.

Thanks for the picture, that does look really nice. If not incorporated in this kitchen build, it will certainly be in mine when it gets built. After telling him lowe's doesn't carry in stock maple boards and I don't trust ordering them and getting whatever they send. Would it be odd to use maple plywood, with a different wood for the face such as birch or oak? He doesn't care what I choose so its up to me.